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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Was it normal not to include MN deaths,


larneman

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Hello one and all,

This might be just a local thing but I was wondring if it was a normal thing. When inquiring why Merchant Marine/Navy dead are not included on the local war memorial I got this answer. The War Memorial was only for those that served in the Armed Forces. Sailors that served on a real or hired RN ship were included but those that sailed as normal sailors on normal Merchant vessels and died were not included. Was this standard practise in the whole of the UK. My father who was born in 1923 and is/was a deepsea Captain informed me that even the Merchant Navy dead of the second world war are not on the memorial.

Any idea's on this subject??

Liam

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Great War Merchant Navy casualties are commemorated on some memorials in Ireland, and these were erected while all of Ireland was still part of the U.K. (see photo, part of a memorial in Dun Laoghaire). There is also a memorial in Wexford to Irish Free State Merchant Navy sailors killed in World War II whose ships were sunk, presumably by German submarines.

Michael Pegum

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I know there was a roll of honour for WWII MN dead, because there is one on display at the Council House (main civic building) in Bristol. It is a bound volume in a glass case and I think they turn a page a day.

Is there something similar for WWI?

I know that some of the shipping lines were disgracefully insensitive to the families of merchant seamen killed in WWII. Was it the same in WWI?

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These might be considered tobe military.

Certainly Kennedy on board a Royal Fleet Auxiliary was such even though a Merchant seaman as well.

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.

Certainly Kennedy on board a Royal Fleet Auxiliary

Or even Royal Field Artillery???

Surely Royal Fleet Auxilliaries were not in existence in WW1 :rolleyes:

{Mercantile Fleet Aux. were though}

269041 Gunner

Herbert Colles Kennedy

2B Res Bde RFA, Died 15 October 1918

Buried Deans Grange Cemetery Republic Of Ireland

Son Of The Very Reverend & Mrs D.H Kennedy of Corrig Castle.

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Sorry for causing a little confusion. I included only three names from the Dun Laoghaire memorial to keep the image small. Only the middle one, Arthur H. Jeffries, was Merchant Navy. The memorial includes casualties from the army (U.K., Canadian and Australian), Royal Navy and air force.

Michael Pegum

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I have been researching the War Memorials of East Kent (Great War only), and so far I have found no Merchant Navy men Listed.

There are quite a few Royal Naval Reserve, but all on board RN vessels.

Regards

Dave

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The following merchant seaman is on my local memorial:

Name: ROBERTS, JAMES MAKANT

Initials: J M

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Second Mate

Regiment: Mercantile Marine

Unit Text: S.S. "Stuart Prince" (Newcastle)

Age: 39

Date of Death: 22/03/1917

Additional information: Son of James Holdsworth Roberts and Ellen Roberts, of "Wintrath," Bridgefield Avenue, Winslow, Cheshire. Born at Lower Broughton, Manchester.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Cemetery: TOWER HILL MEMORIAL

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Surely Royal Fleet Auxilliaries were not in existence in WW1 

{Mercantile Fleet Aux. were though}

Royal Fleet Auxiliaries

Also in 1911 the Royal Fleet Auxiliaries was formed. This arose from difficulties over the legal position of the crew of the hospital ship Maine, commissioned in 1902 with a civilian crew, although it was one of HM ships and part of the Mediterranean Fleet. Until 1921 the officers of the Royal Fleet Auxiliaries were nearly all RNR officers and ranked accordingly. Since then they have been ranked as other merchant navy officers.

TAKEN FROM THIS WEBSITE

National Archives

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Not just 'ranked as' Merchant navy. They are Merchant Navy they had exactly the same contracts as any officer or man on any other merchant ship.

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It's exactly what i've said in another post, it's as though those who fought, and often did much needed duties (such as fishermen on minesweeping or just catching fish) have not been recognised locally. The only monument that i'm aware of is Tower Hill.

Regards

Paul

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Hi,

Can only add that on my local memorial the MN casualties are mentioned just as that Merchant Navy alongside their name.

Andy

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In addition to Tower Hill, The Liverpool Naval Memorial displays the names of over 1400 men of the Merchant Navy who died serving with the Royal Navy.

To quote from CWGC:-

"At the outbreak of the Second World War, it was evident that the Royal Navy would not be able to man all the auxiliary vessels that would serve with it. To deal with the shortfall in manpower, a number of officers and men of the Merchant Navy agreed to serve with the Royal Navy under the terms of a T.124 agreement, which made them subject to Naval discipline while generally retaining their Merchant Navy rates of pay and other conditions. The manning port established to administer these men was at Liverpool. More than 13,000 seamen served under these conditions in various types of auxiliary vessels, at first mainly in armed merchant cruisers, but also in armed boarding vessels, cable ships, rescue tugs, and others on special service. The Liverpool Naval Memorial commemorates 1,400 of these officers and men, who died on active service aboard more than 120 ships, and who have no grave but the sea. The great majority of Merchant Navy men, who did not serve with the Navy, but with merchant ships, are commemorated on the Merchant Navy Memorial, at Tower Hill in London."

I have pictures of the memorial and all its plates and am happy to provide any on request.

Regards

Steve

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