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voltaire60

VICTORIAN "OLD SOLDIERS" AND THE GREAT WAR

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GrenPen
Quote

It was announced [?] that any re-enlisted ex-Regular NCO up to the age of forty-five would be 'posted wherever possible to a unit of his former corps in the new six divisions and army troops and promoted forthwith to the rank he held on discharge.' The upper age limit for re-enlisted NCOs was extended to fifty before the end of the month.

 

Source:

Kitchener’s Army: The Raising of the New Armies 1914 – 1916

ISBN 978-1-84415-585-9

Author Peter Simkins

Edited by GrenPen
Unsure of announcement date as I no longer have the book

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johnmelling1979

Hello

 

Just found this thread and I have a profile to share with you that I am still in the process of researching -

 

 Walter Waterhouse - MORE RESEARCH NEEDED, AS THIS SOLDIER HAS SEEN SOME ACTION !!

 

I have a picture of him -

 

Age: 19 as of 1895

Rank: Pte, Sergeant (1911) CSM, RSM upto 1919

Reg no: 4929

1 Loyal North Lancashire Regiment

 

Enlisted on 15 August 1895

Joined at Preston on 16 August 1895

Promoted to L/Cpl on 11 March 1898 with extra pay

Promoted Cpl on 14 March 1900

Extended to complete 12 years with the colours on 3 November 1902

Promoted Sergeant on 9 February 1906

Promoted Company Q M Sergt as of 9 June 1914

Relinquished his new appointment and goe's back to CSM on 30 June 1914

Posted as missing

Prisoner of War as of 30 November 1914

Repatriated Prisoner , as CSM  on 18 November 1918

Elected to draw pension whilst serving as of 23 January 1919

 

 

Promoted on 20 June 1919 to (T)emp/ RSM

 

Discharged 19 April 1920 after approx 25 years of service 

 

Stationed away at Burtpore Barracks, Hants in 1911

Born in Accrington

Family is living in Whittle le Woods as of 1891 to 1911

Parents are David and Mary Waterhouse

 

Living at Rockleigh, Horns Road, Stroud, Glos. as of Discharge

 

Living on a Pension of £92, 13, 7 per annum as of 23 June 1948 

 

South African Campaign

 

Wounded at Kalfontien on 23 May 1901

 

South African Medal & 3 Clasps

Kings Medal & 2 Clasps

Awarded Medal for Long Service and Good Conduct in 1914 

Entitled to wear to Clasp on his 1914 Star Medal and the Roses on the Star ribbon ( I think)

 

A bar clasp inscribed "5 Aug. to 22 Nov. 1914" was given to all those who qualified for the 1914 Star and who served under fire. Since the same ribbon is used with the 1914-15 Star, holders of the 1914 Star were permitted to wear a small silver rosette on their ribbon when the decoration itself is not worn. On the medal index cards this is usually noted as the "Clasp and Roses" or "C&R" .It was necessary to apply for the issue of the clasp.

 

 

Mentioned in Sir John French's Despatches 8\10\1914?

London Gazette on 9\12\1914

Mentioned in Lord Kitchener's Despatch to Secretary of State for War dated Pretoria 8 July 1901

For good service during attack on enemy to Venterdorp on 23 May 1901?

London Gazette on August 20th 1901?

Defence of Kimberley, Transval

Walter Waterhouse, South African Campaign (2nd Boer War) and WW1 survivor.jpg

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Muerrisch

Thank you very much.

You may well know the following but others may not:

 

A minor point regarding your 

Promoted Sergeant on 9 February 1906

Promoted Company Q M Sergt as of 9 June 1914

Relinquished his new appointment and goe's back to CSM on 30 June 1914

 

In 1914 those with the RANK of colour sergeant in the infantry were APPOINTED either the CSM [senior] or CQMS [junior] in the new company organisation.

The CSM was granted an extra 6d per day.

Both appointments retain C Sgts badges until May 1915.

 

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johnmelling1979

Hello Muerrisch,

 

Thanks for the extra information. His records are quite full of interesting information and I'm glad I found it

I guess Walter may have enjoyed the extra 6d per day, just enough to buy a pound of cheese back then I think?

As you will have seen from his profile above, he went through a hell of a lot in 25 years of soldiering.

 

 

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Muerrisch

or 2 pints of best bitter.

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johnmelling1979
1 minute ago, Muerrisch said:

or 2 pints of best bitter.

 

2 pints of Bitter and Cheese...

Well no wonder he survived and served so long.

 

Will be good to see what else may come up regarding him...

I have so many men to research ;P its hard to keep track

 

cheers

 

John

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BullerTurner
On 19/02/2017 at 22:27, bif said:

My pleasure.  Think about a modern soldier in the Uk.  He could've served in the Falklands, 1st Gulf War, and the Iraq War.  Maybe even a stint in NI or Afghanistan ?  

 

PS

Stiletto's reply got under me.  Robertson came to the colors

in 1885.

 Highly likely.  I joined in 1979 and served until 2013.  So all of those wars were possible for my contemporaries and I, although only one of us has a full house!  He was not an infantry or cavalryman but Combat Service Support, so a specialist and therefore when we were rested between operations, he just stagged on!  

 

Another chum served in the Falklands as a "just out the depot" Para.  He left after Telic 1 but then served in Iraq and Afghan as a Private Military Contractor and in the Gulf as a ship security detail.  

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BullerTurner

There is an excellent resource to examine the Victorian soldier in the GW.  The career of "Frank Richards" extended from 1901 to the end of the Great War, with a gap on the reserve of course?  His GW memoir Old Soldiers Never Die was published in 1933 and was the first OR's account and a regular OR at that!  I read it in my school library in 1978 - we had a lot of GW books and I blame them for my obsession!  In 1936, he published a second memoir, Old Soldier Sahib, covering his time in India. I found that a few years later in a junk jop in Durham.  He is also to be found in Captain JC Dunn's The War The Infantry Knew 1914-1919 under the pseudonym of "Big Dick".

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Muerrisch
4 minutes ago, BullerTurner said:

There is an excellent resource to examine the Victorian soldier in the GW.  The career of "Frank Richards" extended from 1901 to the end of the Great War, with a gap on the reserve of course?  His GW memoir Old Soldiers Never Die was published in 1933 and was the first OR's account and a regular OR at that!  I read it in my school library in 1978 - we had a lot of GW books and I blame them for my obsession!  In 1936, he published a second memoir, Old Soldier Sahib, covering his time in India. I found that a few years later in a junk jop in Durham.  He is also to be found in Captain JC Dunn's The War The Infantry Knew 1914-1919 under the pseudonym of "Big Dick".

 

For those who missed publication, I co-authored the definitive, hardback, versions of both of Richards's books, copiously illustrated, footnoted, with appendices and maps.

 

There are a very few still available for sale on my shelves, at much less than published price. Happy to help enthuse more readers!  Please PM if interested.

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Derek Black
4 hours ago, BullerTurner said:

His GW memoir Old Soldiers Never Die was published in 1933 and was the first OR's account and a regular OR at that! 


Was it really the first to be published by an other rank?
It seems like a large window of time between the end of the war and 1933 for that to be the case.

 

Cheers,

Derek.

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Muerrisch

Most ORs had better things to do than write memoirs, with many out of work, many in insecure jobs, and few prosperous. After the war they competed with redundant officers for jobs near the bottom of the food chain.

 

The Richards book, if not the first, had benefit of advice and some editorial input from Robert Graves, and access to Robert's publishing agents.

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BullerTurner

It is widely held to be the first Derek.  As Muerrisch says, Woodruff/Richards wasn't a standard OR.  He had support from Graves and he had a slightly more secure financial basis than most of his contemporaries.  I wouldn't say better things to do but most ex-soldiers were distracted by making a life and living in a very difficult social-economic environment.

 

He wasn't one of a crowd, standing out for many reasons.  He was however typical of the trained soldier and returned reservist.  He was the sort of soldier that you would pencil in for a fighting patrol.  All of us who have served, had one of those rough men standing ready types we valued!

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Derek Black
On 25/02/2019 at 13:28, Muerrisch said:

Most ORs had better things to do than write memoirs, with many out of work, many in insecure jobs, and few prosperous. After the war they competed with redundant officers for jobs near the bottom of the food chain.

 

The Richards book, if not the first, had benefit of advice and some editorial input from Robert Graves, and access to Robert's publishing agents.

 

23 hours ago, BullerTurner said:

It is widely held to be the first Derek.  As Muerrisch says, Woodruff/Richards wasn't a standard OR.  He had support from Graves and he had a slightly more secure financial basis than most of his contemporaries.  I wouldn't say better things to do but most ex-soldiers were distracted by making a life and living in a very difficult social-economic environment.

 

He wasn't one of a crowd, standing out for many reasons.  He was however typical of the trained soldier and returned reservist.  He was the sort of soldier that you would pencil in for a fighting patrol.  All of us who have served, had one of those rough men standing ready types we valued!


Thank you for the insight gentlemen.
I can very well imagine publishing memoirs was low on the list of priorities for men post war.
I'll stick it on my list to acquire.

 

I tried to win an auction recently for a book that i've been keeping an eye out for, I think that's what popped up in my mind with regard to publishing dates.
Henry Drummond Gaulds book, who was a private in the K.OS.B., had his memoir "The Truth From The Trenches" published in 1922, reprinted as "Scotland Yet" in 1930.

Cheers,
Derek.

Edited by Derek Black

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seaforths
11 hours ago, Derek Black said:

 


Thank you for the insight gentlemen.
I can very well imagine publishing memoirs was low on the list of priorities for men post war.
I'll stick it on my list to acquire.

 

I tried to win an action recently for a book that i've been keeping an eye out for, I think that's what popped up in my mind with regard to publishing dates.
Henry Drummond Gaulds book, who was a private in the K.OS.B., had his memoir "The Truth From The Trenches" published in 1922, reprinted as "Scotland Yet" in 1930.

Cheers,
Derek.

 

Hello Derek, can I ask what battalion KOSB Henry Drummond Gauld was with?

 

I’ve enjoyed reading this topic and have traced/researched a couple of the ‘old’ soldiers that went onto serve in WW1. I think it would be difficult to get a figure with any accuracy. There would be a number of men that served on home territory as militia, volunteer rifles etc. That, as part-timers, didn’t go overseas but did serve during WW1 in some capacity at home or abroad. Additionally, some of these part-timers did volunteer to serve in the Boer War when the casualties mounted and they asked for extra men from the volunteer battalions to come forward. I have lists of names of 3 contingents of men that went out to Africa from the 3rd Morayshire Battalion Seaforth Highlanders (later becoming the 6th Bn Seaforth Hrs). I found it hard to locate records of their Boer War service and put together evidence for them. One day, when I get more time, I will return to it and try again - it was one of the projects I was dabbling with before I had to hang up my research boots.

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Keith_history_buff

One of the big hopes is that when the Pension Card digitisation is completed this year, it should allow the further identification of older soldiers who performed Home Service, and do not therefore have MICs. 

 

The existence of British Army Ancestors is useful insofar as if you are researching an older man, you can see if he has a namesake that has been created on that site as a result of service records in WO 96 or WO 97.

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Derek Black
1 hour ago, seaforths said:

Hello Derek, can I ask what battalion KOSB Henry Drummond Gauld was with?


I don't have the book, but he would appear to have been: 22805 7th/8th K.O.S.B. then later 43615 11th R.S.F.

 

Cheers,

Derek.

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seaforths
55 minutes ago, Derek Black said:


I don't have the book, but he would appear to have been: 22805 7th/8th K.O.S.B. then later 43615 11th R.S.F.

 

Cheers,

Derek.

 

Many thanks Derek. I see that NLS have a copy and the regimental museum might have a copy. I wonder when he made the switch to RSF. I would quite like to see the book if he was still with the KOSB in October 1917. The book ‘Border Battalion...’ is one of 3 books I’ve come across that make mention of ‘F Post’ on the Scarpe at that time. My granddad was one of the men that was captured from that post. Sorry for wandering off topic...

 

Back on topic and my signature on the end of my posts was a WW1 trench comment made by Major C.E. Johnston, 6th Bn. Seaforth Hrs. He was listed as missing and was killed in the March 1918 German offensive. He was the only officer of the first contigent of volunteers from 3rd VB Seaforth Hrs that went to South Africa and at that time a captain. He decided to stay at the end of his spell there, taking a permanent commission with the Scottish Horse. I’m not entirely sure whether his service was continuous into WW1 and suspect it was not. He was initially on home service involved in training with the Seaforth Hrs. His father was instrumental in forming one of the Elgin battalions of the 3rd Volunteer Bn. Seaforth Hrs and eventually became the Colonel. If you have a scarf or some other attire with a label ‘Johnston’s of Elgin’, it’s the same family.

 

The difficulty I had in the past in tracing them was that, in South Africa, they were attached to other regiments such as Black Watch or Gordon Hrs so whether the pension cards would be able to shed light on it, I don’t know.

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