Private R. Oldfield

[Patte]

Hi Everyone,

I'm looking for more specific Informations about Privat R. Oldfield (24722), age 38.  

 

Private Oldfield was serving into the 19th (Service) Battalion (4th City Pals) of the Manchester Regiment.  Private Oldfield was 'Killed in Action' in Zillebeke, near Ypres on the 22nd June 1917.  He's buried at the CWG Cemetery 'Perth Cemetery (China Wall) @ Zillebeke'.

 

I've already visit his grave on several occasions, but now I'm searching for information about the spot or place where Private Oldfield and his mates were killed in action.  A few family members of Private Oldfield are coming over to Belgium in June 1917 and I would like to visit the spot of the tragedy with them.  

 

Can anybody help me out with some Information?  Thanks in advance.

[HarryBrook]

This extract from the war diary gives the map refs. of where they were on 22 June 1917.

Zillebeke map Ed. 5a - I.24.d.65.00 (St. Peter St.) to I.24.d.80.80 (Chalmers Walk)

and this is a link to the relevant map in the nls archive.

http://maps.nls.uk/view/101464645

 

 

Edit to add: This link may be more useful it has the modern day google earth view overlay facility  

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=50.8343&lon=2.9398&layers=101464642&b=1

Edited 30 January , 2017 by HarryBrook

[Patte]

30 minutes ago, HarryBrook said:

This extract from the war diary gives the map refs. of where they were on 22 June 1917.

Zillebeke map Ed. 5a - I.24.d.65.00 (St. Peter St.) to I.24.d.80.80 (Chalmers Walk)

and this is a link to the relevant map in the nls archive.

http://maps.nls.uk/view/101464645

 

 

Edit to add: This link may be more useful it has the modern day google earth view overlay facility  

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=50.8343&lon=2.9398&layers=101464642&b=1

Thank you very much Harry for this.  Helped me a lot !

31 minutes ago, HarryBrook said:

This extract from the war diary gives the map refs. of where they were on 22 June 1917.

Zillebeke map Ed. 5a - I.24.d.65.00 (St. Peter St.) to I.24.d.80.80 (Chalmers Walk)

and this is a link to the relevant map in the nls archive.

http://maps.nls.uk/view/101464645

 

 

Edit to add: This link may be more useful it has the modern day google earth view overlay facility  

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=50.8343&lon=2.9398&layers=101464642&b=1

 

[Patte]

Many thanks for those informations, Mister Brook.  This help me a lot further to point the right spot of the trenches, when I'm going over to this place in June with the family of Private Oldfield.

[sotonmate]

Patte

Welcome to the Forum !

Aren't these maps great !

The references are practically on the Hill 60 Memorial in Canadalaan.

[Mark1959]

Can I assume you have got what records of his service are extant? Qualified for 1914/15 Star not in France but Balkans 2B. Went there 6/11/15 with or to join 11th Manchesters

[KevinBattle]

OLDFIELD, R. Rank: Private. Service No: 24722. Date of Death: 22/06/1917. Age: 38.
Regiment/Service: Manchester Regiment 19th Bn. 
Grave Reference: Durham Cem. Mem. 70. Cemetery: PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL).
Additional Information:Husband of Maria Oldfield, of 28, Sunnyside St., Salford, Manchester.

 

Can someone clarify the "Special Memorial" aspect?

Historical Information:
The cemetery was begun by French troops in November 1914 (the French graves were removed after the Armistice) and adopted by the 2nd Scottish Rifles in June 1917. It was called Perth (as the predecessors of the 2nd Scottish Rifles were raised in Perth), China Wall (from the communication trench known as the Great Wall of China), or Halfway House Cemetery. The cemetery was used for front line burials until October 1917 when it occupied about half of the present Plot I and contained 130 graves. It was not used again until after the Armistice, when graves were brought in from the battlefields around Ypres and from the following smaller cemeteries:-
DURHAM CEMETERY, ZILLEBEKE, at the North end of the village, was used from December 1915 to March 1916. It contained the graves of 52 soldiers from the United Kingdom, 39 of whom belonged to Territorial battalions of the Durham Light Infantry. 
There are now 2,791 Commonwealth servicemen of the First World War buried or commemorated in this cemetery. 1,369 of the burials are unidentified and special memorials are erected to 27 casualties known or believed to be buried among them. Other special memorials bear the names of 104 casualties buried in the cemeteries concentrated here, whose graves could not be found. 

There are 40 Durham Cemetery Special Memorials, those from 69 to 74 are all 19th Manchester men, 1 dying on 21st June; 4 on 22nd and 1 on 23rd, possibly from the same incident.

 

At the risk of touching sensitivities, I presume that the 19th Manchesters were originally buried in the Durham Cemetery, but when concentrated to China Wall their remains could not be specifically identified?

Private Green has an unusual set of names.... the Register actually showed his initials as W H...

 

GREEN, WINSTON CHURCHILL	Private	45512	21/06/1917	18	Manchester Regiment	United Kingdom	Durham Cem. Mem. 69.	PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL)
OLDFIELD, R	Private	24722	22/06/1917	38	Manchester Regiment	United Kingdom	Durham Cem. Mem. 70.	PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL)
BARKER, WALTER	Private	14073	22/06/1917	26	Manchester Regiment	United Kingdom	Durham Cem. Mem. 71.	PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL)
YOUNG, HENRY	Private	48521	22/06/1917		Manchester Regiment	United Kingdom	Durham Cem. Mem. 72.	PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL)
WHITELEY, WILLIAM	Private	47070	22/06/1917	21	Manchester Regiment	United Kingdom	Durham Cem. Mem. 73.	PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL)
BURDETT, FRANK (FRANCIS)	Private	40916	23/06/1917	19	Manchester Regiment	United Kingdom	Durham Cem. Mem. 74.	PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL)

[Patte]

On ‎30‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 20:15, sotonmate said:

Patte

Welcome to the Forum !

Aren't these maps great !

The references are practically on the Hill 60 Memorial in Canadalaan.

Thanks for the add and the welcome word.  I've already went over several times to Hill 60, the Candadian Memorial, and also to Perth Cemetery (China Wall), but in this specific case it was for researh to Private Oldfield, to went on tour in the area with his family, when they are coming over to Belgium in June.  So the more intel I have, the better it will be

[Patte]

On ‎30‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 23:00, KevinBattle said:

OLDFIELD, R. Rank: Private. Service No: 24722. Date of Death: 22/06/1917. Age: 38.
Regiment/Service: Manchester Regiment 19th Bn. 
Grave Reference: Durham Cem. Mem. 70. Cemetery: PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL).
Additional Information:Husband of Maria Oldfield, of 28, Sunnyside St., Salford, Manchester.

 

Can someone clarify the "Special Memorial" aspect?

Historical Information:
The cemetery was begun by French troops in November 1914 (the French graves were removed after the Armistice) and adopted by the 2nd Scottish Rifles in June 1917. It was called Perth (as the predecessors of the 2nd Scottish Rifles were raised in Perth), China Wall (from the communication trench known as the Great Wall of China), or Halfway House Cemetery. The cemetery was used for front line burials until October 1917 when it occupied about half of the present Plot I and contained 130 graves. It was not used again until after the Armistice, when graves were brought in from the battlefields around Ypres and from the following smaller cemeteries:-
DURHAM CEMETERY, ZILLEBEKE, at the North end of the village, was used from December 1915 to March 1916. It contained the graves of 52 soldiers from the United Kingdom, 39 of whom belonged to Territorial battalions of the Durham Light Infantry. 
There are now 2,791 Commonwealth servicemen of the First World War buried or commemorated in this cemetery. 1,369 of the burials are unidentified and special memorials are erected to 27 casualties known or believed to be buried among them. Other special memorials bear the names of 104 casualties buried in the cemeteries concentrated here, whose graves could not be found. 

There are 40 Durham Cemetery Special Memorials, those from 69 to 74 are all 19th Manchester men, 1 dying on 21st June; 4 on 22nd and 1 on 23rd, possibly from the same incident.

 

At the risk of touching sensitivities, I presume that the 19th Manchesters were originally buried in the Durham Cemetery, but when concentrated to China Wall their remains could not be specifically identified?

Private Green has an unusual set of names.... the Register actually showed his initials as W H...

 

GREEN, WINSTON CHURCHILL	Private	45512	21/06/1917	18	Manchester Regiment	United Kingdom	Durham Cem. Mem. 69.	PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL)
OLDFIELD, R	Private	24722	22/06/1917	38	Manchester Regiment	United Kingdom	Durham Cem. Mem. 70.	PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL)
BARKER, WALTER	Private	14073	22/06/1917	26	Manchester Regiment	United Kingdom	Durham Cem. Mem. 71.	PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL)
YOUNG, HENRY	Private	48521	22/06/1917		Manchester Regiment	United Kingdom	Durham Cem. Mem. 72.	PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL)
WHITELEY, WILLIAM	Private	47070	22/06/1917	21	Manchester Regiment	United Kingdom	Durham Cem. Mem. 73.	PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL)
BURDETT, FRANK (FRANCIS)	Private	40916	23/06/1917	19	Manchester Regiment	United Kingdom	Durham Cem. Mem. 74.	PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL)

Thanks Kevin, those intel were already in my possession, liked I visit already the grave of Private Oldfield on 5 occassions.   I'm helping out some family of Private Oldfield, who are coming over to Belgium in June 2017.  The story behind the China Wall is new for me, thanks for that.  I knew that many initial burial places were destroyed into the war and that it was very difficult to find the remains afterwards.  Many thanks for the intel

[Patte]

On ‎30‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 22:18, Mark1959 said:

Can I assume you have got what records of his service are extant? Qualified for 1914/15 Star not in France but Balkans 2B. Went there 6/11/15 with or to join 11th Manchesters

Mark I have the intel about his war records with the code B2 but his family didn't know that I went over to the Balkans...they always thought that he fought in France and Belgium, so that really a new phase into the information line of his life as a soldier into the British Army that he went over to the Balkans on 6th November 1915 only a few days after he was enlisted.  Thanks for that

[ss002d6252]

5 minutes ago, Patte said:

Mark I have the intel about his war records with the code B2 but his family didn't know that I went over to the Balkans...they always thought that he fought in France and Belgium, so that really a new phase into the information line of his life as a soldier into the British Army that he went over to the Balkans on 6th November 1915 only a few days after he was enlisted.  Thanks for that

For him to enlist and be shipped off so fast he would need to have had prior experience.

He received a net War Gratuity of £8 10 - this was £10 10s gross. This was paid for 23 months qualifying service at the time of his death.

Nov 15 to Jun 17 would account for 19/20 months so he had 3/4 months war time service prior to this date - 3/4 months was the standard training time prior to going overseas.

Craig

[Patte]

Is someone over here in the group who can lead me to the War Medals of Private Robert Oldfield.  His family doesn't have any clue where ever his medals or death plate were going after the war.  So if anyone can give me a hint, please let me know... James and his wife, Robert's family, are coming over to Belgium in June and it will be great if they can spot the exact location(s) of his War honours.  Many thanks !

[Patte]

3 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

For him to enlist and be shipped off so fast he would need to have had prior experience.

He received a net War Gratuity of £8 10 - this was £10 10s gross. This was paid for 23 months qualifying service at the time of his death.

Nov 15 to Jun 17 would account for 19/20 months so he had 3/4 months war time service prior to this date - 3/4 months was the standard training time prior to going overseas.

Craig

Craig,  whow that's also a new intel... so if I understand well Robert Oldfield must have a prior experience in shooting or army skills before he enlisted at the army in War?  That's something that I must clarify with his family because I don't think that this intel was known by them.  Thanks also for the explains of his War Gratuity he received

[ss002d6252]

22 minutes ago, Patte said:

Craig,  whow that's also a new intel... so if I understand well Robert Oldfield must have a prior experience in shooting or army skills before he enlisted at the army in War?  That's something that I must clarify with his family because I don't think that this intel was known by them.  Thanks also for the explains of his War Gratuity he received

 

War Gratuity wasn't paid to cover pre-war service so, although he may have had some it cannot explain the War Gratuity which was paid. Between Nov 15 and Jun 17 only 19/20 months of qualifying service for the war gratuity is covered - we know he had 23 months, This means that between Aug 14 and Nov 15 we have 3/4 months war time service unaccounted for. This is the length of time most men trained for so I'd expect it was his training period prior to going overseas.

 

Craig

Edited 1 February , 2017 by ss002d6252

[Patte]

1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

There's two options 1) he had pre-war service or 2) he had war time service prior to  Nov 15.

 

War Gratuity wasn't paid to cover pre-war service so it leaves one possible option. Between Nov 15 and Jun 17 only 19/20 months of qualifying service for the war gratuity is covered - we know he had 23 months, This means that between Aug 14 and Nov 15 we have 3/4 months war time service unaccounted for. This is the length of time most men trained for so I'd expect it was his training period prior to going overseas.

 

Craig

Thanks Craig

[8055Bell]

Courtesy SWARM Robert Oldfield worked at Irwell & Eastern Rubber Co

 

There's a guy named Jamie who is  a gt grandson

Edited 1 February , 2017 by 8055Bell

[Patte]

11 minutes ago, 8055Bell said:

Courtesy SWARM Robert Oldfield worked at Irwell & Eastern Rubber Co

 

There's a guy named Jamie who is  a gt grandson

Thanks for the intel.  Indeed it's James (Jamie) who's coming over to Belgium in June... so it will be with him that I'm going to visit Perth Cemetery (China Wall), the Menin Gate and the Menin Gate Memorial and the Memorial Museum Passchendaele 1917.

 

[BillyJ]

On 2/1/2017 at 10:12, Patte said:

Thanks Kevin, those intel were already in my possession, liked I visit already the grave of Private Oldfield on 5 occassions.   I'm helping out some family of Private Oldfield, who are coming over to Belgium in June 2017.  The story behind the China Wall is new for me, thanks for that.  I knew that many initial burial places were destroyed into the war and that it was very difficult to find the remains afterwards.  Many thanks for the intel

William Whiteley is my great uncle, and I'm trying to find out where I might be able to obtain any photos of him. I know quite a bit about him from his service records, though some of it I find difficult to understand. He enlisted on the 15th Nov 1915 with the 3/9th Battalion, Manchester Regiment, then was posted to 19th Manchester on the 13th Dec 1916. He seems to have two Regimental numbers 9/4235 and 47070, no doubt one with the 9th and one with the 19th. I am new to this site and I would appreciate any assistance that anyone can give me. Thank you

[kenf48]

William Whiteley enlisted in the Territorial Force and was allocated the number 9/4235.  The 3/9 was a Home Service Battalion.

He was, as you surmise, renumbered when he transferred to the 19th, a New Army or 'Service' Battalion.  The only place you are likely to find a readily identifiable photograph is in the newspaper archives.  

There is an announcement in the Manchester Evening News July 9th, 'One of England's Heroes' but no photograph.

 

Ken

[BillyJ]

19 hours ago, kenf48 said:

William Whiteley enlisted in the Territorial Force and was allocated the number 9/4235.  The 3/9 was a Home Service Battalion.

He was, as you surmise, renumbered when he transferred to the 19th, a New Army or 'Service' Battalion.  The only place you are likely to find a readily identifiable photograph is in the newspaper archives.  

There is an announcement in the Manchester Evening News July 9th, 'One of England's Heroes' but no photograph.

 

Ken

 

[BillyJ]

Just now, BillyJ said:

 

Thanks Ken for the information, it was gratefully received and I really appreciate it. I'm learning more and more about my Great Uncle as time goes by.