CSM Royal Sussex Regiment: Venn? Barnard?

[laughton]

Stumbled across this fellow when checking on my Canadians in Vis-en-Artois British Cemetery:

 

Quote

I will take this one over to the GWF, but just to note it while I am here, the Unknown CSM of the Sussex Regiment (you have to use "Serjeant" not "Sergeant") has to be Edward Noah Venn #L/9049 of the Royal Sussex Regiment, listed on the Vis-en-Artois Memorial. He is on COG-BR 2060585 and GRRF 2060966. He is the only one missing on the CWGC and they don't show any at that time in Vis-en-Artois British Cemetery. Unless I am wrong they don't show any Sussex Men in this cemetery, at any time?

 

I have notices that there are a lot of British men from the Spring of 1917 mixed in with Canadians from August 1918 in this sector (51b.I.32 and O.2) around Monchy-le-Preux. Maybe someone can tell me if CSM Venn could have been there on 9 August 1918 as well?

Edited 16 January , 2017 by laughton
added Barnard to title for search engine

[laughton]

Later on I found an unknown Royal Sussex in 4.C.12 (COG-BR 2060608  &  GRRF 2060974) - better check later to see if he was with CSM Venn?

[KevinBattle]

There was only one Battalion of the Royal Sussex sustaining casualties on 9th August 1918, 14 are recorded as dying with the 7th Bn (as CSM Venn).

By that stage of the War, there's no guarantee that he was Sussex born; there are two other Venn's in Royal Sussex in CWGC, W E Venn in 8th Bn but no Additional Information and J Venn from Lindfield.

Of the 14, 10 have known graves, but these are on Vis en Artois Memorial

VENN, EDWARD NOAH. Rank: Company Serjeant Major. Service No: L/9049. Date of Death: 09/08/1918.
Regiment/Service: Royal Sussex Regiment 7th Bn. 
Panel Reference: Panel 6. Memorial: VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL

Seems to have connection to East Grinstead, he's on their War Memorial as per http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Sussex/EastGrinstead.html

VENN, Edward Noah. CSM. L.9049 7th Battalion, The Royal Sussex Regiment. 12th Division. Regular, formerly with the 2nd Battalion.

Killed in action at the battle of Amiens 9. 8.18 Aged 25. Born St. Mary’s and enlisted in Chichester.

Next of Kin West Grinstead. Included on the Parish Church Memorials of West Grinstead and Partridge Green.

Commemorated on the Vis en Artois Memorial

 

REICKIE, WILLIAM HERBERT. Rank: Private. Service No: G/23642. Date of Death: 09/08/1918.
Regiment/Service: Royal Sussex Regiment 7th Bn. 
Panel Reference: Panel 6. Memorial: VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL.

 

SEAMARK, JOSEPH SAMUEL. Rank: Private. Service No: G/23647. Date of Death: 09/08/1918.
Regiment/Service: Royal Sussex Regiment 7th Bn. 
Panel Reference: Panel 6. Memorial: VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL.

 

WILD, GEORGE. Rank: Private. Service No: G/14284. Date of Death: 09/08/1918
Regiment/Service: Royal Sussex Regiment 7th Bn. 
Panel Reference: Panel 6. Memorial: VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL.

 

These are the burial places for the 10..

BATTENSBY, HARRY JOHN CHASE (JACK). Rank:Lance Corporal. Service No:G/17508. Date of Death:09/08/1918. Age:22
Regiment/Service:Royal Sussex Regiment 7th Bn. 
Grave Reference: D. 34. Cemetery: QUERRIEU BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:Only son of Robert Harry and Jane Elizabeth Battensby, of 58, Torbay Rd., Brondesbury, London. Born at Hove.

 

CARSTAIRS, PHILIP GORDON. Rank:Private. Service No:18913. Date of Death:09/08/1918. Age:19
Regiment/Service:Royal Sussex Regiment 7th Bn. 
Grave Reference: III. C. 19. Cemetery: PERNOIS BRITISH CEMETERY, HALLOY-LES-PERNOIS
Additional Information:Elder son of James and Elizabeth Carstairs, of Westenhanger, Kent.

 

COLES, REGINALD JOSEPH. Rank:PrivateService No:G/19433Date of Death:09/08/1918Age:19
Regiment/Service:Royal Sussex Regiment 7th Bn. 
Grave Reference: V. C. 1. Cemetery:BEACON CEMETERY, SAILLY-LAURETTE
Additional Information:Son of John and Emily Sarah Coles, of Rose Cottage, Croft Rd., Goring-on-Thames.

 

DAWSON, LEONARD. Rank:Lance Serjeant. Service No:2283. Date of Death:09/08/1918. Age:22
Regiment/Service:Royal Sussex Regiment 7th Bn. 
Grave Reference: III. C. 23. Cemetery: PERNOIS BRITISH CEMETERY, HALLOY-LES-PERNOIS
Additional Information:Son of Caleb and Louisa Dawson, of Ewhurst, Sussex.

 

FULLER, C. Rank: Private. Service No:G/23821. Date of Death:09/08/1918. Age:18
Regiment/Service:Royal Sussex Regiment 7th Bn. 
Grave Reference: III. I. 14. Cemetery:BEACON CEMETERY, SAILLY-LAURETTE
Additional Information:Son of Jonathan and Harriet Fuller, of 172, Goods Station Rd., Tunbridge Wells.

 

JENNER, GORDON WILLIAM ALFRED JOHN. Rank:Private. Service No:G/19486. Date of Death:09/08/1918. Age:19
Regiment/Service:Royal Sussex Regiment "A" Coy. 7th Bn. 
Grave Reference: III. I. 16. Cemetery:BEACON CEMETERY, SAILLY-LAURETTE
Additional Information:Son of William Alfred and Emily Mary Pierce Jenner, of 59, Sladedale Rd., Plumstead Common, London.

 

KERSWILL, A L. Rank:Private. Service No:G/17096. Date of Death:09/08/1918
Regiment/Service:Royal Sussex Regiment 7th Bn. 
Grave Reference: III. E. 25. Cemetery:BEACON CEMETERY, SAILLY-LAURETTE

 

KING, CHARLES JAMES. Rank:Private. Service No: 19493. Date of Death:09/08/1918. Age: 19
Regiment/Service:Royal Sussex Regiment "A" Coy. 7th Bn. 
Grave Reference: III. I. 3. Cemetery: BEACON CEMETERY, SAILLY-LAURETTE
Additional Information:Son of Charles Alfred and Alice King, of 9, Aden Grove, Stoke Newington, London.

 

SAYERS, HENRY. Rank: Serjeant. Service No:1850. Date of Death: 09/08/1918. Age: 22
Regiment/Service:Royal Sussex Regiment "C" Coy. 7th Bn. 
Grave Reference: D. 40. Cemetery: QUERRIEU BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:Son of George and Ellen Sayers, of Little Brook, Cowfold, Sussex.

 

WHITE, ARTHUR THOMAS. Rank: Private. Service No:G/16285. Date of Death:09/08/1918. Age:23 
Regiment/Service:Royal Sussex Regiment 7th Bn. 
Grave Reference: III. E. 12. Cemetery: PERNOIS BRITISH CEMETERY, HALLOY-LES-PERNOIS
Additional Information:Son of Mr. and Mrs. White, of Pear Tree Cottages, Donnington, nr. Chichester.

 

Sorry, I don't have access to the War Diary but hope this is of some help.

 

There is a Family Tree for CSM Venn, his maternal grandfather was a Noah Longhurst.

http://www.terrys.org.uk/charts/uvw/venn400.htm

1901 Census gives address in Bar Lane, West Grinstead

Edited 16 January , 2017 by KevinBattle

[laughton]

On 16/01/2017 at 23:45, KevinBattle said:

Killed in action at the battle of Amiens 9. 8.18

 

So that would put him out of range of burial at 51b.I.32.c.0.3 which is Keeling Copse, northwest of Monchy-le-Preux. Do we know when the Royal Sussex Regiment might ever have been in that area?

 

On further checking I see CSM Barnard on the Arras Memorial for 13 April 1917, which would make more sense.

 

surname	initials	death	bn	#	location	grave
BARNARD, D.C.M.	F	12/13-04-1917	9th Bn.	'L/10145'	ARRAS MEMORIAL	Addenda Panel.
BIGNELL	W H	21-07-17	13th Bn.	'SD/2611'	DERNANCOURT COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION	VI. F. 10.
BULL	H	01-05-15	5th Bn.	'L/3263'	CABARET-ROUGE BRITISH CEMETERY, SOUCHEZ	XXVIII. B. 18.
BURCHELL	D	11-09-16	8th Bn.	'SR/280'	BLIGHTY VALLEY CEMETERY, AUTHUILLE WOOD	I. E. 8.
CARTER, V.C.	N V	30-06-16	12th Bn.	'SD/4'	ROYAL IRISH RIFLES GRAVEYARD, LAVENTIE	VI. C. 17.
COLEMAN	W T	03-09-16	12th Bn.	'SD/568'	THIEPVAL MEMORIAL	Pier and Face 7 C.
FRY	F S	25-09-15	"B" Coy. 2nd Bn.	'L/5733'	LOOS MEMORIAL	Panel 69 to 73.
GREEN, D.C.M.	E J	21-10-16	11th Bn.	'SD/874'	REGINA TRENCH CEMETERY, GRANDCOURT	IX. M. 23.
HART	W J	27-06-16	5th Bn.	'5/528'	COUIN BRITISH CEMETERY	I. A. 16.
NICHOLAS	G A	30-06-16	"B" Coy. 12th Bn.	'SD/1418'	CABARET-ROUGE BRITISH CEMETERY, SOUCHEZ	XV. N. 27.
OAKLEY	G F	24-09-18	2nd Bn.	'L/7411'	BELLICOURT BRITISH CEMETERY	III. H. 10.
PINK	E	29-07-18	17th Bn.	'L/11561'	BELLACOURT MILITARY CEMETERY, RIVIERE	III. C. 5.
STEVENS	E	03-09-16	11th Bn.	'SD/640'	THIEPVAL MEMORIAL	Pier and Face 7 C.
TAYLOR	T W H	19-09-18	15th Bn.	'G/1177'	DOINGT COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION	I. C. 8.
VENN	E N	09-08-18	7th Bn.	'L/9049'	VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL	Panel 6.

 

[laughton]

Back checking the war diaries now that I have access. Royal Sussex Regiment, 24th Division, 73rd Brigade, 9th (Service) Battalion.

 

We know from the presence of Private George Warren Hatfield of the Royal Canadian Regiment (# 734477), that the remains were recovered near Monchy-le-Preux (TMC 51b.I.32.c.0.3), which is only 1,500 yards southeast of Arras.

 

April 1917 (page 105 of 262) shows little action until the attack of 12 April 1917 on Bois-en-Hache (TMC 36c.S.2.b) in cooperation with an attack by the Canadian Corps. The death of C.S.M. Barnard of "A" Coy is reported (page 109 of 262). I suspect, but can not confirm, that he was killed along with Lieutenant W. D. Chepmell during the advance on the German front line around 5 am on the morning of 12 April 1917.

 

That takes C.S.M. Barnard off the list.

 

To check on C.S.M. Venn, we have to go to the war diaries listed under the 36th Infantry Brigade, 12th (Eastern) Division, He was killed in August 1918 (page 329 of 691). That confirms that he was not in the area but rather in just northwest of Ham (TMC 62.D.J.23).

 

Royal Sussex H.Q. was at Ham (TMC 62.D.K.19.a - page 335 of 691).

 

That confirms C.S.M. Venn is off the list.

 

We are running out of candidates! The war diary tells us C.S.M. Coleman of the 12th (Service) Battalion, 116th Brigade, 39th Division was near Englebelmer (TMC 57d.Q.25) when he was killed on 3 September 1916 (page 31 0f 92). C.S.M. Stevens of the 11th (Service) Battalion, same brigade and division as the 12th, was killed the same day as Coleman, was at Beaumont Hamel (TMC 57d.Q.11) and went into billets at Englebelmer at the end of the day.

 

That takes Coleman and Stevens off the list.

 

The last one left is C.S.M. Fry, listed on the Loos Memorial for 25 September 1915 (war diary page 193 of 591). On the 25th of the month they were at Hulluch (TMC 36c.H.13.b), so as expected, well out of the area (page 196 of 581).

 

We have run out of C.S.M.s and now I face the possibility that I should not have been looking for this fellow because he had already been identified! No, that is not the case, there are no identified men of the Royal Sussex Regiment in the Vis-en-Artois British Cemetery, Haucourt (CWGC = 0).

 

What are the other options:

Serjeant Major - 2 lost and both with known graves (CWGC Link).

 

Regimental Serjeant Major - 1 of 3 lost is missing and on the Tyne Cot Memorial (CWGC Link), so he was not in France.

 

Serjeant with a battlefield promotion - 8 on the Arras Memorial, eliminate Woodhams as he was with C.S.M. Barnard.

 

I will post this and give it some more thought! Anyone else have ideas??

 

POSSIBLE - Serjeant Charles Adams, as in the correct location at Long Trench on 25 July 1917 when the 36th Infantry Brigade raided and captured Long Trench (page 464 of 601). I know from one of our Canadian cases that Long Trench runs between 51b.O.2.a and 51b.I.32.c, precisely where the remains were found. Had he received a battlefield promotion before his death?

[ss002d6252]

I haven't got Ancestry access at the moment but presumably the diaries account for those CSM being with the battalion at the time of their death and not elsewhere ?

Are there many missing Serjeants of the Sussex ? I would have thought though that man with a battlefield commission wouldn't have been wearing CSM uniform unless he'd been acting in that role for a while. If that was the case you'd have then expected that it would have been long enough to have been noted on the  CWGC.

If the man was a CSM then his war gratuity should be paid that that rank, it was paid at the ' substantive, temporary or acting rank ' when he died.  If you have any likely Serjeant's then a cross reference against the war gratuity should help eliminate any men not show as CSM on the CWGC in error (and hopefully leave a right one...)

Craig

[laughton]

Good point about confirming that the C.S.M.'s were actually with their Regiment at the time of their death. If not the CWGC would normally show "Attached To" or something similar, but you are correct that we can not make that assumption.

 

I don't think I have access to the files that would enable that to be checked. unless it is on some part of Ancestry that I have yet to use?? 

 

These are the eight (8) Serjeants I mentioned in my last post, all on the Arras Memorial:

 

TAYLOR	GEORGE WILLIAM EDWARD	G W E	04-07-17	Serjeant	Royal Sussex Regiment	7th Bn.	'S/1701'
ADAMS	CHARLES	C	25-07-17	Serjeant	Royal Sussex Regiment	7th Bn.	'G/131'
AUSTIN	HARRY JAMES	H J	09-04-17	Serjeant	Royal Sussex Regiment	7th Bn.	'G/772'
BAKER	FRANK	F	30-06-16	Serjeant	Royal Sussex Regiment	2nd Bn.	'L/8710'
BEALE	ALFRED WILLIAM	A W	09-04-17	Serjeant	Royal Sussex Regiment	7th Bn.	'G/931'
WOODHAMS	THOMAS HENRY	T H	13-04-17	Serjeant	Royal Sussex Regiment	9th Bn.	'G/1307'
NEWNHAM	HENRY	H	10-03-16	Serjeant	Royal Sussex Regiment	2nd Bn.	'6817'

 

If it was a Serjeant, then Taylor is also a candidate on 4 July 1917, as they attacked the shell holes in front of Hook Trench (TMC 51b.O.2.c). That is just one sector south of I.32 where the remains were recovered (page 462 of 601).

 

Just to strike them off the list, it was not Newham of the 2nd Battalion on 10 March 1916, as they were at Les Brebis near Loos (page 231 of 581). When Baker was killed on 30 June 1916 they were at North Maroc (TMC 36c.G.32.d), also in the Loos/Lens area (page 261 of 581).

 

I did go back to see what the CWGC put on the Headstone, and thanks again to our Canadian Hatfield we can find that headstone schedule. It has the unknown in Plot 3 Row H Grave 24:

 

Edited 26 January , 2018 by laughton

[ss002d6252]

28 minutes ago, laughton said:

Good point about confirming that the C.S.M.'s were actually with their Regiment at the time of their death. If not the CWGC would normally show "Attached To" or something similar, but you are correct that we can not make that assumption.

 

I don't think I have access to the files that would enable that to be checked. unless it is on some part of Ancestry that I have yet to use?? 

 

These are the eight (8) Serjeants I mentioned in my last post, all on the Arras Memorial:

 

TAYLOR	GEORGE WILLIAM EDWARD	G W E	04-07-17	Serjeant	Royal Sussex Regiment	7th Bn.	'S/1701'
ADAMS	CHARLES	C	25-07-17	Serjeant	Royal Sussex Regiment	7th Bn.	'G/131'
AUSTIN	HARRY JAMES	H J	09-04-17	Serjeant	Royal Sussex Regiment	7th Bn.	'G/772'
BAKER	FRANK	F	30-06-16	Serjeant	Royal Sussex Regiment	2nd Bn.	'L/8710'
BEALE	ALFRED WILLIAM	A W	09-04-17	Serjeant	Royal Sussex Regiment	7th Bn.	'G/931'
WOODHAMS	THOMAS HENRY	T H	13-04-17	Serjeant	Royal Sussex Regiment	9th Bn.	'G/1307'
NEWNHAM	HENRY	H	10-03-16	Serjeant	Royal Sussex Regiment	2nd Bn.	'6817'

 

If it was a Serjeant, then Taylor is also a candidate on 4 July 1917, as they attacked the shell holes in front of Hook Trench (TMC 51b.O.2.c). That is just one sector south of I.32 where the remains were recovered (page 462 of 601).

 

Just to strike them off the list, it was not Newham of the 2nd Battalion on 10 March 1916, as they were at Les Brebis near Loos (page 231 of 581). When Baker was killed on 30 June 1916 they were at North Maroc (TMC 36c.G.32.d), also in the Loos/Lens area (page 261 of 581).

 

I did go back to see what the CWGC put on the Headstone, and thanks again to our Canadian Hatfield we can find that headstone schedule. It has the unknown in Plot 3 Row H Grave 24:

 

The effects records are here - https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=60506 . They can often give some clues as where death occurred, if nor with the battalion. The CSM would also receive a higher gratuity (I don't have access at the moment to Ancestry but happy to answer any effects records/gratuity queries as that is my 'area')

 

Not sure if will allow access from Canada based on the access level.

Craig

Craig

[laughton]

Craig:

 

Yes, I can access those from Canada. It just says Taylor was a Serjeant.

 

Amounts auhorized at the end were 2.10.4, whatever that means. At the end 16.10.0 maybe to clear the account?

[laughton]

In the Canadian system, I can tell the ORIGINAL battalion a man attested to from his service number. Does that apply in the U.K. as well? For example, it appears that most of the Royal Sussex men on the Arras Memorial have a number preceded by a "G' or "L". A few have "SD" or "TF".

 

My interest in that is to see if one of the other CSMs on the Arras Memorial could have been a Royal Sussex, now serving with another regiment. When I compiled the list of all the CSM men on the Arras Memorial, there was nobody noted as "att'd Royal Sussex", which is what you would normally see in the CWGC database. An amazing number of them fell in Operation Michael in late March 1918.

 

surname	forename	honours	death	regiment	unit	C.S.M. #
HAY	DERRECK		23-08-18	ALIAS (HANIES, G. F.)		'9640'
ROBERTSON	ALFRED R. R.		24-04-17	Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders	2nd Bn.	'8111'
McCLEARY	JAMES LYONS		16-05-17	Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders	1st/8th Bn.	'325331'
BRAND	RICHARD M.	D C M, M M	03-05-17	Bedfordshire Regiment	7th Bn.	'16176'
STRACHAN	HUGH DRUMMOND	D C M	09-04-17	Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)	9th Bn.	'9478'
SMILES	TAYLOR HUMPHREY		23-04-17	Border Regiment	7th Bn.	'12659'
MILLS	WILLIAM EWART GLADSTONE		16-05-17	Border Regiment	7th Bn.	'8914'
JOHNSTONE	THOMAS		11-04-17	Cameron Highlanders	6th Bn.	'S/12740'
GATLAND	GEORGE JOHN		03-05-17	Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)	9th Bn.	'9167'
FARRINGTON	HERBERT	M M	22-03-18	Cheshire Regiment	11th Bn.	'13905'
FRANCOMBE	JAMES		24-03-18	Cheshire Regiment	9th Bn.	'17040'
WILLEY	ARTHUR REGINALD		09-05-17	Devonshire Regiment	1st Bn.	'9089'
HASTIE	FREDERICK		23-04-17	Devonshire Regiment	1st Bn.	'28441'
CLEGG	BEN		22-03-18	Duke of Wellington's (West Riding Regiment)	9th Bn.	'12658'
TURTON	JOSEPH	M M	21-03-18	Durham Light Infantry	"C" Coy. 2nd Bn.	'8915'
EMMITT	GEORGE E.		23-04-17	East Yorkshire Regiment	1st/4th Bn.	'200107'
ROSEWELL	BERTRAM		29-04-17	East Yorkshire Regiment	1st Bn.	'5067'
LLOYD	GEORGE		23-04-17	East Yorkshire Regiment	1st/4th Bn.	'204004'
RADLEY	SIDNEY		14-04-17	Essex Regiment	1st Bn.	'7790'
URQUHART	JOHN		17-06-17	Gordon Highlanders	1st Bn.	'521'
NORRIE	ROBERT R.		23-04-17	Gordon Highlanders	7th Bn.	'290531'
MILTON	PETER EWING		23-03-18	Gordon Highlanders	6th Bn.	'265064'
LUND	GEOFFREY WILLIAM	D C M	21-04-17	Hampshire Regiment	2nd Bn.	'7222'
HARBOURNE	GEORGE EDWARD		22-03-18	Hampshire Regiment	17th Entrenching Bn., late 14th Bn.	'5891'
SANDERSON	WILLIAM GLADSTONE		23-04-17	Highland Light Infantry	10th/11th Bn.	'7214'
TAYLOR	ERNEST LEWIS		24-03-18	Highland Light Infantry	2nd Bn.	'7590'
BRUCE	ANGUS	D C M	27-03-18	Highland Light Infantry	14th Bn.	'19160'
FIRTH	ERNEST		23-04-17	King's Own Scottish Borderers	1st Bn.	'25529'
PRENTICE	THOMAS	M C	16-04-17	King's Own Scottish Borderers	1st Bn.	'7968'
STURGEON	JAMES		02-06-17	King's Own Scottish Borderers	1st Bn.	'29352'
ERVINE	JAMES		28-04-17	King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry	9th Bn.	'8033'
ROLPH	WILLIAM ROBERT		29-04-17	King's Royal Rifle Corps	1st Bn.	'5424'
HAINES	GEORGE FREDERICK		28-03-18	King's Shropshire Light Infantry	7th Bn.	'9640'
O'LEARY	JOHN	M M	04-05-17	King's Shropshire Light Infantry	7th Bn.	'6783'
BANKS	WILLIAM		25-03-18	Lancashire Fusiliers	1st/5th Bn.	'200124'
DUNCAN	CHARLES EDWARD		25-03-18	Leicestershire Regiment	2nd/4th Bn.	'200661'
PALMER	ALFRED EDWIN		03-05-17	Leicestershire Regiment	8th Bn.	'13062'
SETTERFIELD	JOHN		03-05-17	Leicestershire Regiment	8th Bn.	'8400'
GRIFFITHS	HENRY		22-03-18	Leicestershire Regiment	"C" Coy. 11th Bn.	'21385'
YORK	WILLIAM ALFRED		25-03-18	Leicestershire Regiment	2nd/4th Bn.	'200807'
OSBORN	ALFRED WILLIAM		02-07-17	Leicestershire Regiment	1st/4th Bn.	'201036'
KENT	JAMES		23-03-18	Lincolnshire Regiment	7th Bn.	'44765'
HAMP	WILFRED ERNEST	D C M, M M	26-06-17	Lincolnshire Regiment	1st/5th Bn.	'240440'
BAXTER	ALBERT J.	M C	05-04-18	London Regiment	1st/24th Bn.	'720145'
BUTLER	FREDERICK CHARLES		21-05-16	London Regiment	"C" Coy. 1st/20th Bn.	'1180'
JAMES	ARTHUR GEORGE		22-05-16	London Regiment (London Irish Rifles)	1st/18th Bn.	'1289'
HOWETT	FRANK		21-05-16	London Regiment (Prince of Wales' Own Civil Service Rifles)	1st/15th Bn.	'412'
COOK	HARRY FIELD		14-04-17	London Regiment (Queen Victoria's Rifles)	1st/9th Bn.	'390446'
SMITH	ALFRED W.	D C M	31-03-18	London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)	1st Bn.	'205646'
KING	LAWRENCE LEGGOTT	M I D	09-04-17	Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)	13th Coy.	'16215'
SEDGWICK	CHRISTOPHER		23-04-17	Manchester Regiment	"D" Coy. 18th Bn.	'10838'
SEEDMAN	WILLIAM		25-04-17	Manchester Regiment	12th Bn.	'15709'
PARKER	HENRY WILLIAM		31-05-17	Middlesex Regiment	16th Bn.	'G/8463'
COLE	WILLIAM		29-04-17	Middlesex Regiment	1st/8th Bn.	'TF/240009'
KEMPLEY	THOMAS	M M	03-05-17	Middlesex Regiment	12th Bn.	'G/2589'
ODAM	JOHN W.		23-03-18	Middlesex Regiment	21st Bn.	'G/15410'
DANIELS	JOSEPH JOHN	M M	09-05-17	Norfolk Regiment	1st Bn.	'8665'
MAGUIRE	THOMAS	M M, M S M	21-03-18	North Staffordshire Regiment	2nd/5th Bn.	'200151'
DAVIES	WILLIAM		01-07-17	North Staffordshire Regiment	1st/5th Bn.	'200375'
LEWIS	FREDERICK ERNEST		23-04-17	North Staffordshire Regiment	9th Bn.	'11921'
ERRINGTON	ARTHUR		28-04-17	Northumberland Fusiliers	25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn.	'42503'
SCOTT	RICHARD		23-04-17	Northumberland Fusiliers	9th Bn.	'13226'
BYRON	WILLIAM		16-06-17	Northumberland Fusiliers	12th Bn.	'5528'
MELLOR	WALLACE HARRY		16-06-17	Northumberland Fusiliers	12th Bn.	'38369'
HENDERSON	WILLIAM ALBERT		23-03-18	Northumberland Fusiliers	9th (Northumberland Hussars) Bn.	'235518'
BAX	WILLIAM HENRY		24-03-18	Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry	2nd Bn.	'8269'
AMBROSE	STEPHEN CHARLES		03-05-17	Royal Berkshire Regiment	6th Bn.	'12892'
KENT	WILLIAM LEEMAN		24-04-17	Royal Dublin Fusiliers	1st Bn.	'6425'
ROUSE	WALTER JOHN	D C M	21-03-18	Royal Engineers	12th Field Coy.	'5168'
SWALLOW	ALFRED BAILEY		21-03-18	Royal Engineers	470th Field Coy.	'2763'
BROOKS	JACOB	M M	21-03-18	Royal Engineers	467th Field Coy.	'49005'
PHILLIPS	ARTHUR		28-04-17	Royal Fusiliers	13th Bn.	'4090'
SCOTT	JAMES		22-03-18	Royal Fusiliers	7th Bn.	'71855'
SHARP	JAMES WILLIAM		11-04-17	Royal Fusiliers	10th Bn.	'STK/1107'
BENNETT	DONALD ARTHUR	M I D	14-04-17	Royal Fusiliers	24th Bn.	'SP/2593'
BRENCHLEY	ALFRED BENJAMIN		24-03-18	Royal Fusiliers	17th Bn.	'E/567'
DUNN	GEORGE	M M	09-10-17	Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers	7th/8th Bn.	'13445'
CALWELL	ARTHUR JAMES		03-05-17	Royal Irish Fusiliers	"A" Coy. 1st Bn.	'10501'
O'MALLEY	TIMOTHY		11-05-17	Royal Irish Fusiliers	1st Bn.	'5367'
ROGERS	REGINALD CLARENCE	M M	26-03-18	Royal Marine Light Infantry	1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div.	'CH/15594'
CAMPBELL	JOHN		26-04-17	Royal Marine Light Infantry	2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div.	'PLY/10131'
MILNE	RICHARD	M M	28-04-17	Royal Marine Light Infantry	2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div.	'PO/10828'
FRANCIS	JOHN L.		21-03-17	Royal Scots	11th Bn.	'11968'
RENWICK	JOHN LAIDLAW	M C, M M	23-04-17	Royal Scots	9th Bn.	'350120'
SKAKLE	GEORGE	M M	03-05-17	Royal Scots	11th Bn.	'9309'
LOW	WILLIAM GORDON	M M	24-05-17	Royal Scots	9th Bn.	'350359'
McGREGOR	ALEXANDER MURRAY		12-04-17	Royal Scots	12th Bn.	'11201'
McKENNIE	ROBERT		23-04-17	Royal Scots	13th Bn.	'20963'
CONNELLY	HUGH		03-05-17	Royal Scots	12th Bn.	'22309'
COOKE	CHARLES J.		25-04-17	Royal Scots	2nd Bn.	'9435'
MACK	GEORGE ALBERT	D C M, M I D	23-04-17	Royal Scots Fusiliers	2nd Bn.	'5523'
GRANT	FREDERICK		28-03-18	Royal Scots Fusiliers	1st Bn.	'6094'
BARNARD	FREDERICK	D C M	12-04-17	Royal Sussex Regiment	9th Bn.	'L/10145'
RICHARDS	JOHN CLARENCE		22-05-17	Royal Warwickshire Regiment	"D" Coy. 11th Bn.	'8164'
CREASEY	WALTER		14-04-17	Royal Warwickshire Regiment	16th Bn.	'807'
LAPWORTH	THOMAS	M M	23-03-18	Royal Warwickshire Regiment	10th Bn.	'5376'
WHITBREAD	WILLIAM	D C M, M M	14-05-17	Royal Welsh Fusiliers	1st Bn.	'10677'
MARKE	HERBERT	M M	23-04-17	Royal Welsh Fusiliers	"A" Coy. 2nd Bn.	'8683'
DURWARD	ROBERT J.		21-03-18	Seaforth Highlanders	4th Bn.	'200444'
FRASER	JAMES RUSSELL		21-03-18	Seaforth Highlanders	"C" Coy. 5th Bn.	'240026'
WHITEHEAD	WILLIAM	D C M, M M	21-03-18	Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)	2nd/7th Bn.	'25592'
ORANGE	GEORGE		25-03-18	Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)	2nd/5th Bn.	'6794'
KIRK	JOHN		01-07-17	Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)	1st/5th Bn.	'201065'
KITCHEN	JOHN RANDALL		21-03-18	Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)	2nd/6th Bn.	'305688'
WRIGHT	ERNEST		24-03-18	South Staffordshire Regiment	2nd Bn.	'4960'
WOODARD	JACK	M M	23-04-17	Suffolk Regiment	"F" Coy. 4th Bn.	'200168'
KITE	THOMAS WARWICK		26-10-17	The Buffs (East Kent Regiment)	1st Bn.	'G/8798'
DUNN	MICHAEL		24-03-18	The King's (Liverpool Regiment)	1st Bn.	'8289'
McNAMEE	ALEXANDER		28-03-18	The King's (Liverpool Regiment)	13th Bn.	'14325'
RABY	JOHN		11-04-17	The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment	10th Bn.	'13660'
HALLIDAY	JOHN WILLIAM	D C M, M M	22-03-18	The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment	10th Bn.	'14148'
TOPLASS	WALTER		22-03-16	The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment	9th Bn.	'6730'
MANNING	HERBERT		26-03-18	The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment)	10th Bn.	'G/9642'
MUDD	ROBERT		13-04-17	West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own)	10th Bn.	'35532'
HORNER	JAMES HENRY HOWARD		03-05-17	West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own)	2nd/5th Bn.	'200013'
HEWSON	CHARLES WILFRED THAMES		26-05-17	West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own)	2nd/5th Bn.	'200805'
DYER	SAMUEL	M M and Bar	23-04-17	Worcestershire Regiment	4th Bn.	'19477'
HARPER	JOHN EDWARD		22-03-18	Worcestershire Regiment	"B" Coy. 3rd Bn.	'10900'
FRANCE	JOSEPH		28-04-17	York and Lancaster Regiment	10th Bn.	'19607'
WILDE	FREDERICK		21-03-18	York and Lancaster Regiment	2nd Bn.	'7991'
WOODS	JAMES	M M	21-03-18	York and Lancaster Regiment	2nd Bn.	'8136'
TOUGH	GEORGE		21-03-18	York and Lancaster Regiment	2nd Bn.	'7292'
MOSS	ALFRED		28-04-17	York and Lancaster Regiment	10th Bn.	'15776'
MIDDLETON	SAMUEL		23-04-17	York and Lancaster Regiment	10th Bn.	'19822'

[kenf48]

On 26/01/2018 at 13:03, ss002d6252 said:

I haven't got Ancestry access at the moment but presumably the diaries account for those CSM being with the battalion at the time of their death and not elsewhere ?

Are there many missing Serjeants of the Sussex ? I would have thought though that man with a battlefield commission wouldn't have been wearing CSM uniform unless he'd been acting in that role for a while. If that was the case you'd have then expected that it would have been long enough to have been noted on the  CWGC.

If the man was a CSM then his war gratuity should be paid that that rank, it was paid at the ' substantive, temporary or acting rank ' when he died.  If you have any likely Serjeant's then a cross reference against the war gratuity should help eliminate any men not show as CSM on the CWGC in error (and hopefully leave a right one...)

Craig

 

The gratuity paid was £30.10s to his sister, putting that in your spreadsheet gives August 1914 but I don't know if you need to adjust it for rank

 

Ken

 

 

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 

The gratuity paid was £30.10s to his sister, putting that in your spreadsheet gives August 1914 but I don't know if you need to adjust it for rank

 

Ken

 

 

That amount is odd. I've just done some manual calcs - which I'll post in a bit - but I can't derive a viable gratuity (it's possible my calc is playing up)

Craig
 

[ss002d6252]

48 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 

The gratuity paid was £30.10s to his sister, putting that in your spreadsheet gives August 1914 but I don't know if you need to adjust it for rank

 

Ken

 

 

Just double checked by hand and it gives the correct result (but for the wrong reason ).  It confirms Venn was certainly paid as a CSM.

A regular enlistment used a Type 1 stamp but was paid in the same way as a Type 2 - this means that the £30 10s was paid gross rather than net, as it would first appear.

£30 10s (gross) would be £12 for 12 months + £18 10s for 37 months, so 49 months in total.

Just double checked and he was a pre-war enlistment via his service record

Craig

[kenf48]

Glad to help

Ken

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, kenf48 said:

Glad to help

Ken

Much appreciated.

Quote

In the Canadian system, I can tell the ORIGINAL battalion a man attested to from his service number. Does that apply in the U.K. as well? For example, it appears that most of the Royal Sussex men on the Arras Memorial have a number preceded by a "G' or "L". A few have "SD" or "TF".

It can be very difficult from the number alone, moving around tended to change the service numbers in a lot of cases (in some cases a change of unit wasn't even needed for the number to change).  Where there's a prefix it's often suggestive that they were still serving under their original number but it's not a 100% certainty.
 

Quote

My interest in that is to see if one of the other CSMs on the Arras Memorial could have been a Royal Sussex, now serving with another regiment.

If they had overseas service with the Sussex then the medal rolls/medal index cards should show that but it's a case of checking each man.

Craig

[Phil Evans]

As far as the Royal Sussex goes:

 

L/ is a Regular enlistment (including during wartime).

G/ and GS/ are General Service enlistments into Service Battalions.

GSSR/ is General Service Special Reserve.

SD/ was exclusively for enlistment into one of the South Down Battalions (11th, 12th and 13th)

TF is Territorial Force

 

As Craig said, in the absence of a service record, the Royal Sussex medal rolls are quite helpful in tracking movements whilst on active service, but not prior to deployment overseas.

The British Army did not employ anything approaching a uniquely identifiable numbering system until the 1920s.

 

Phil

[laughton]

Thanks for the assistance - every bit helps!

 

I also looked at the British units that were with the Canadians in that area during the Battle of Arras in late August 1918. The only one that "popped out" as CSM Hayes. That presented another problem!

 

There are two (2) men listed, with one marked at an ALIAS:

1. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/785890/hay,-derreck/
2. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/637587/haines,-george-frederick/ 

You will note from the CWGC pages that CSM Hay was reported killed on 23 August 1918 and CSM Haines on 28 March 1918. Obviously one of those dates is wrong, as the same man cannot die on two different dates. Since the name is on the ARRAS MEMORIAL, I suspect it is CSM Hay, as those listings stopped on 7 August 1918. It would appear a “3” and an “8” have been transposed.

 

CSM Hay has a Medal Index Card (this link), which shows him as a Corporal and Warrant Officer Class II (Company Serjeant Major). It also lists him with the 1st Shropshire Light Infantry not the 7th. It is possible he was attached to the 7th or the card is wrong, as the 1st Battalion moved from France to Belgium between the 24th and 27th of March 1918 (page 453 of 715). The 7th Battalion was in Henin, France on that date (page 76 of 589).
 

As the date is wrong, he was not with the Canadians in that area in August 1918. The Canadian records (Nicholson Map 12) show that the British units in the area were with the 4th British Infantry Division, 33rd Infantry Brigade. That must be a Canadian error (or oversimplification) as the 2nd Bn West Riding Regiment and 2nd Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiments are shown on the LLT as 4th Division, 10th Infantry Brigade. The 2nd Bn Lancashire Fusiliers is shown as 4th Division, 36th (Ulster) Brigade and the 1st Bn Prince Albert's (Somerset Light Infantry) is shown as 4th Division, 11th Infantry Brigade. I have to assume it was a "combined 4th Division Force"?

 

During the same period, the 51st (Highland) Division was just north of the Canadians in the Gavrelle-Roeux sector. That puts them north of where the remains were found at Monchy.

[ss002d6252]

27 minutes ago, laughton said:

Thanks for the assistance - every bit helps!

 

I also looked at the British units that were with the Canadians in that area during the Battle of Arras in late August 1918. The only one that "popped out" as CSM Hayes. That presented another problem!

 

There are two (2) men listed, with one marked at an ALIAS:

1. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/785890/hay,-derreck/
2. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/637587/haines,-george-frederick/ 

You will note from the CWGC pages that CSM Hay was reported killed on 23 August 1918 and CSM Haines on 28 March 1918. Obviously one of those dates is wrong, as the same man cannot die on two different dates. Since the name is on the ARRAS MEMORIAL, I suspect it is CSM Hay, as those listings stopped on 7 August 1918. It would appear a “3” and an “8” have been transposed.

 

CSM Hay has a Medal Index Card (this link), which shows him as a Corporal and Warrant Officer Class II (Company Serjeant Major). It also lists him with the 1st Shropshire Light Infantry not the 7th. It is possible he was attached to the 7th or the card is wrong, as the 1st Battalion moved from France to Belgium between the 24th and 27th of March 1918 (page 453 of 715). The 7th Battalion was in Henin, France on that date (page 76 of 589).
 

As the date is wrong, he was not with the Canadians in that area in August 1918. The Canadian records (Nicholson Map 12) show that the British units in the area were with the 4th British Infantry Division, 33rd Infantry Brigade. That must be a Canadian error (or oversimplification) as the 2nd Bn West Riding Regiment and 2nd Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiments are shown on the LLT as 4th Division, 10th Infantry Brigade. The 2nd Bn Lancashire Fusiliers is shown as 4th Division, 36th (Ulster) Brigade and the 1st Bn Prince Albert's (Somerset Light Infantry) is shown as 4th Division, 11th Infantry Brigade. I have to assume it was a "combined 4th Division Force"?

 

During the same period, the 51st (Highland) Division was just north of the Canadians in the Gavrelle-Roeux sector. That puts them north of where the remains were found at Monchy.

So, looking at the effects records;
 

#9640 Derreck Hay - 29 Mar 1918
7th Shrops
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60506/42511_6129999_0171-00074?pid=482601&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DNdj342%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DUKArmyRegistersEffects%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26_F8007A65%3D9640%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyvc%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D10%26h%3D482601%26recoff%3D70%26ml_rpos%3D11&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ndj342&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

 

#9640 F Derreck Hay - 29 Mar 1918
Shrops LI
Shows as alias G F Haynes
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60506/42511_6117463_0131-00206?pid=562441&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DNdj345%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DUKArmyRegistersEffects%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26_F8007A65%3D9640%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyvc%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D11%26h%3D562441%26recoff%3D70%26ml_rpos%3D12&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ndj345&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

 

 

With his number being #9640 I would suspect that he was a pre-war regular soldier who originally would have been 1st/2nd battalion but had been posted to the 7th as an experienced man.E
EDIT:
If it was a regular number then #9640 would date from 1911, which would mean he would be a serving regular in Aug 1914. If he was a regular then this matches his war gratuity of £28 nicely. This would be for 44 months from Aug 14 which matches a date of death in March.

 

Craig

Edited 28 January , 2018 by ss002d6252