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U-564

Long Ribbon Bar from a Bavarian Officer

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U-564

Hello I'm George and new to the Forum. It's a pleasure
I have this long WWI ribbon bar and would like to confirmate the information I have or change it and make a serious investigation of the original owner.

Thanks in advance, 

George

1.jpg

2.jpg

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U-564

This is what I have and would like to confirm it or change it

Beginning from the left to the right in order:

1-Iron Cross, 1914/EK2 Prussian 

2- Military merit CROSS- 4th class

3- St. George of Bavaria. ( 2nd class )

4- Luitpold medal of 1905

5- Wedding anniversary  medal of 1918. 

6- Hindenburg Cross with Swords.  

7- Bavarian Long Service medal for 9 years service 

8- Brunswick War service cross,

9- Hessian War Service Medal

 

Thanks!

 

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AOK4

Your information seems to be correct. It might be possible to identify the owner via the Georgsorden (I guess there must be lists of awards somewhere in the Bavarian archives).

 

Jan

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U-564
3 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Your information seems to be correct. It might be possible to identify the owner via the Georgsorden (I guess there must be lists of awards somewhere in the Bavarian archives).

 

Jan

Thank you very much for your opinion Jan. It could be a veteran that fought in WWII too? or maybe it was in germany between the two World Wars?

An appreciated friend suggested that It could be at least a Lt. Colonel at the final of the WWI. A veteran proud of his MVK4 combat award and put this ribbon before the St. George of Bavaria. 

I found this list from Wikipedia of recipients of the Order of St. George but I think I hadn't lucky.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Recipients_of_the_Order_of_St._George

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AOK4

He must have been an officer probably and could have served in WW2 as well.

 

You'll need to go to the German archives if you want the list of all people who received the Order of St. George (I don't think the list is available online or published). Then you can start looking up the names in the Kriegsranglisten en Kriegsstammrollen to see whether the other medals match.

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trajan
5 hours ago, U-564 said:

Any help? :(

 

4 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Your information seems to be correct. ...

 

I think that like many, as Jan says, you had it down right and so you didn't need a reply!

 

BUT, what is really needed here is any background that you can offer. So, for example, why the suggestion that he may have been active in WW2? Certainly possible, but do you have an idea that he might have been? Also, it would help others (not me, I am not a specialist!) if you showed a photograph of the back. The bar might have a maker's mark which might - if there - identify when and where it was made, so helping in the process of working out where the man came from.

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Michael Lowrey

I have access to the 1918 Bavarian Rangliste, and there are exactly zero lieutenant colonels or majors listed with the Military Merit Order 4th class with Swords and the Crown and Bavarian Order of St. George. And to take it a step further, only one officer in those ranks is listed with the Order of St. George at all — and his other medals are not a match.

The Military Merit Order 4th class with swords and the crown serves as a limit to how senior your officer could be. It’s somewhat rare for a lieutenant colonel to have only the MMO 4th Class with Swords and the Cross — just 20 of the 88 lieutenant colonels listed have that award, the rest have a higher grade of the MMO (3rd Class with Swords or 3rd Class with Swords and Crown).

I haven’t gone through all the captains, but Rittmeister Kaspar, Graf von Preysing-Lichtenegg-Moos is listed as having the Order of St. George 3rd Class and the Military Merit Order 4th class with Swords. One obvious problem is that he was KIA at Niewkerke on April 14, 1918.

The Order of St. George wasn’t abolished at the end of the war, so a postwar award is possible I suppose.

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U-564
20 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Then you can start looking up the names in the Kriegsranglisten en Kriegsstammrollen to see whether the other medals match.

 

20 hours ago, trajan said:

photograph of the back

 

15 hours ago, Bilco said:

you can also try posing the photos here

 

15 hours ago, Michael Lowrey said:

there are exactly zero lieutenant colonels or majors listed with the Military Merit Order 4th class with Swords and the Crown and Bavarian Order of St. George

 

15 hours ago, Michael Lowrey said:

The Order of St. George wasn’t abolished at the end of the war, so a postwar award is possible I suppose

 

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U-564

First of all, thanks for your interest on discover the owner of this Ribbon Bar.

 

AOK4:  Why do you suggest to make a research here? I'm agree that on internet there is only a small part of the information about the owners of the Order of St. George. It was only a try

 

trajan:  I'm attaching another picture ( not the best, I don't have any other ) and It doesn't seems to have a private mark label lamentably

 

Bilco: I did it Bill, but I see that I didn't pointed it at the right place. You can see the thread here:

http://gmic.co.uk/topic/70159-long-ribbon-bar-from-a-bavarian-officer/

Mr. Paul C suggest he could be: A likely candidate for this bar is H d.R Karl Kellner 5 PB. His awards were: BMV4XKr, BLM3J, BLD2, EK1, BrK2, HT, VAs and the Luipold. But not confirmed.

 

Michael Lowrey:  Thank you very much for your time on it, I really appreciate it. Some friends suggested me that it could be the 3- St. George of Bavaria. ( 2nd class ) but If it's not? My good friend told me about the rank, here are his comments with all his good knowledge ( It is a nice long Bavarian ribbon bar of at least a Lt. Colonel who was a member of the  nobility and who received the Order of St. George. Swords, mean Combat award/bravery.  With this award, it seems that the crown also denoted military rank!  So for a MVK4th Class, Swords for Lt-Hauptmann and the addition of the crown, LTC-Colonel. But we always can learn everyday with new information.

 

 

 

trh.jpg

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Michael Lowrey

U-564,

 

First, it's the MVO we are talking about and not the MVK, right? Orders were for officers, crosses for enlisted. (The Prussian Iron Cross was an exception.) 

 

For most awards from the German states, what level of the award you got depended upon your rank. For the MVO, you can think of the Crown as being a half step up -- Leutnants and Oberleutnants usually got the 4th Class with Swords but there were certainly cases of them receiving the 4th Class with Swords and Crown. (A random page of Oberleutnnants shows 25 with the 4th Class with Swords and 4 with 4th Class with Swords and Crown). For Hauptleute/Rittmeister, the majority still were awarded the 4th Class with Swords but the percentage with 4th Class with Swords and the Crown is a bit higher.

 

For majors, you still see 4th Class with Swords listed for some of the more junior guys but for more senior majors, it’s a mix of 4th Class with Swords and the Crown and 3rd Class with Swords with even a few 3rd Class with Swords and the Crown.

 

For lieutenant colonels, as said, 75% percent+ are listed with the MVO 3rd Class with Swords and the Crown or the 3rd Class with Swords and the rest (20 of 88) “just” the 4th Class with Swords and the Crown.

 

Best wishes,

Michael

 

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U-564

Hello Michael,
The first correction, I thought it was MVK. So MVO thanks.

My friend told me that it could be a higher rank with the 4th Class with Swords and Crown. So another correction that this veteran cold be from Leutnant to...? and the list then can be much longer than I thought. So I correct the 2nd award:
2- Military merit ORDER- 4th class (MVO4)

-And possibly rank between Leutnant to...

Any other correction on the Ribbon Bar list above?

Can we discard  H d.R Karl Kellner 5 PB then? I don't know his awards for compare them.

This Ribbon Bar Came with an Iron Cross 1st Class I suppose from the same WWI soldier. I attach a picture

All the best, George

 

 

2.jpg

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U-564
On 17/1/2017 at 15:43, Michael Lowrey said:

The Prussian Iron Cross was an exception.

What do you mean Michael?

The Iron Cross 1st class that I exposed helps?

Best, George

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U-564

Any other correction or information about it? ^_^

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JasonA

Nice ribbon bar!

 

J-

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