Hospital ship Cambria 1916 - which hospital in the UK?

[Rachel Zaouche]

Hi everyone

 

I am trying to trace the movements of my great great uncle - Martin Glynn.  He  was killed in action on the 29th September 1918 - he was a 2nd LT in the Worcestershires.

 

Originally he was in the Irish Guards (6630) - he was a batsman to 2nd Lt WH Ball.  He  was injured in France on April 7th 2016, he went to Boulogne before being sent back to the UK on 26 April 1916.  (could be the 14 April but I think that was the date he left Boulogne.)  I have attached the record here. 

 

How can I find out which hospital he was sent to in the UK?   Is there a record of this somewhere?  I have been told there is no complete service record for Martin as it was destroyed in the German bombing of the records in Walmoth Sept 1940.  

 

I was also told he met King George. I am wondering now if it was while he was in hospital.  

 

Any help would be appreciated, thank you :-) 

 

 

[TEW]

Quote

 I have been told there is no complete service record for Martin as it was destroyed in the German bombing of the records in Walmoth Sept 1940.  

 

As he gained a commission in April 1918 his record escaped being burnt and you have obviously obtained his officer record from The National Archives. I'm surprised that the 1916 injuries on the above sheet do not continue and give the name of the hospital. Are you 100% sure there are no mentions of a UK Hospital among the other sheets?

There may be a mention of hospitals or a hospital stamp you've missed. Check the sheets and add images of any that may help.

 

I can see from another source that he was listed as being 10th Battalion attached 2nd Battalion Worcestershires. The 2nd Btn, diary is on ancestry if you have a subscription. As an Officer he may get a mention. He was obviously with 10th Worcesters at some point but that diary only goes up to Feb 1918.

 

Again, perhaps his serving battalions are mentioned in his record?

 

The sheet you've provided for 1916 injuries show a wound to the right arm. Taken in by 4th Field Ambulance to 12 Casualty Clearing Station and then 18 General Hospital before returning on the Cambria.

No. 4 FA were at RED FARM on 7/4/1916. This is between Ypres and Poperinghe.

12 CCS were at Longpre

18 GH were at Camiers.

TEW

[sotonmate]

Further to TEW the file, as you seem to have seen it, will ordinarily have papers about his hospitalisation and Medical Board assessments of his state of fitness and ability to return to the fray,or not. Ordinarily each report has a basic summary of reason under treatment and where this occurred.

HS Cambria would have merely brought wounded to these shores and they would have been unloaded and distributed to wherever appropriate for the case, or to places which had space for them. Various South Coast ports were used, from Dover round to here in Southampton, where patients were mostly distributed by rail and as far away as into Scotland.

 

Edited 12 January , 2017 by sotonmate

[Rachel Zaouche]

On 1/12/2017 at 12:10, TEW said:

 

As he gained a commission in April 1918 his record escaped being burnt and you have obviously obtained his officer record from The National Archives. I'm surprised that the 1916 injuries on the above sheet do not continue and give the name of the hospital. Are you 100% sure there are no mentions of a UK Hospital among the other sheets?

There may be a mention of hospitals or a hospital stamp you've missed. Check the sheets and add images of any that may help.

 

I can see from another source that he was listed as being 10th Battalion attached 2nd Battalion Worcestershires. The 2nd Btn, diary is on ancestry if you have a subscription. As an Officer he may get a mention. He was obviously with 10th Worcesters at some point but that diary only goes up to Feb 1918.

 

Again, perhaps his serving battalions are mentioned in his record?

 

The sheet you've provided for 1916 injuries show a wound to the right arm. Taken in by 4th Field Ambulance to 12 Casualty Clearing Station and then 18 General Hospital before returning on the Cambria.

No. 4 FA were at RED FARM on 7/4/1916. This is between Ypres and Poperinghe.

12 CCS were at Longpre

18 GH were at Camiers.

TEW

 

 

Wow thank you :-)  I actually had a researcher look him up and that is a picture he sent me. He was the one who told me the records had been burnt :-(  Yes he was killed when attached to the 2nd Btn at the Battle of St Quentin on the 29 September 1918.  He is buried in the pigeon ravine cemetery along with other men from his unit.  He served as a batsman to Ball in the Irish Guards.  He got a field commission in April 1918 after joining the Worchestershires.   

 

This is what the researcher (not from this site)  said:

 

Martin Glynn was killed in action when the 2nd Worcestershire Regiment, as part of the 100th Infantry Brigade, attacked German positions known as Stone Trench and Pigeon Trench at Epehy. The attack failed and caused the death of eight officers and about eighty men (according to the war diary), although the Commonwealth War Graves Commission puts the total at 87 officers and men.

 

I have about 50 images - will go through them again and see if I can find anything to help.  Thank you so much  TEW

Edited 14 January , 2017 by Rachel Zaouche

[Rachel Zaouche]

On 1/12/2017 at 20:55, sotonmate said:

Further to TEW the file, as you seem to have seen it, will ordinarily have papers about his hospitalisation and Medical Board assessments of his state of fitness and ability to return to the fray,or not. Ordinarily each report has a basic summary of reason under treatment and where this occurred.

HS Cambria would have merely brought wounded to these shores and they would have been unloaded and distributed to wherever appropriate for the case, or to places which had space for them. Various South Coast ports were used, from Dover round to here in Southampton, where patients were mostly distributed by rail and as far away as into Scotland.

 

 

Thank you Sotonmate. I had a researcher look into my great uncle as I wasnt sure how to start. He sent me a big file in dropbox with lots of images etc.

2nd April 1916

Wounded in action. Variously described as a shrapnel wounds and gunshot wound, left arm. He obviously spent time in hospital in Boulogne before returning to the UK aboard the Hospital Ship Cambria.

 

I will have a look through again and see what I can find out. I am guessing there is somewhere I can buy these records from.

 

Thanks again :-) Is there a thank you button on this forum.

 

Rach

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sotonmate]

Rachel

 

I have seen quite a few officer service records and looking at the papers you have posted at Post #1 I would say that is what you have been sent by your researcher, so you have probably bought them already ! :

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C697779

I am at Kew next week and will take a look to see if there is a small detail or two that might have been missed. These files have often subsequently been "weeded" (reduced in volume by removal of pages seen as unnecessary in the big picture) so you might be unlucky in retrieving a full story.

Saying Thank You is more thoughtful than pressing a button, so Thank you for saying Thank you !!

[TEW]

The image your researcher provided came from his Officers' personal file held at The National Archives. Surprised that he says his records had been burnt when they've been located and photographed.

 

I suspect you have already 'bought' Glynn's service record in the form of 50 odd images on dropbox. Probably not much to gain by buying them direct from National Archives unless pages have been missed or are out of focus.

 

Have the images been 'shared' to your dropbox or do you have them on your own dropbox account? It may be possible to put up a link to the dropbox folder and let others have a look at the records.

 

(Note that sotonmate may be able to check them)

 

A hospital entry may not be that obvious, it could be abbreviated or in scrawly writing.

 

Just to explain a bit about his records;

He joined up into the Irish Guards as Private 6630, had he remained with the Irish Guards throughout the war or died with them during the war his set of records should have been deposited with the Guards record office. These were not burnt in Sept 1940. See here if you want to know more about the fire in Walworth. Records of all Guards were treated separately.

 

However, as he gained a commission into the Worcestershires in 1918 his records as Private 6630 of the Irish Guards would have been placed into his Officers' personal file now held at National Archives. The image you provided in post#1 shows his casualty as Private 6630 in 1916. The officer's personal file was not stored at Walworth and escaped being burnt.

 

I'm not 100% certain but I also think that as he gained a commission in a non-guards unit then the Guards Record Office won't have anything for him. Hopefully someone else could clarify that point.

 

TEW

[Rachel Zaouche]

8 hours ago, sotonmate said:

Rachel

 

I have seen quite a few officer service records and looking at the papers you have posted at Post #1 I would say that is what you have been sent by your researcher, so you have probably bought them already ! :

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C697779

I am at Kew next week and will take a look to see if there is a small detail or two that might have been missed. These files have often subsequently been "weeded" (reduced in volume by removal of pages seen as unnecessary in the big picture) so you might be unlucky in retrieving a full story.

Saying Thank You is more thoughtful than pressing a button, so Thank you for saying Thank you !!

 

You brought a tear to my eye, thank you very much - I am so amazed you would be willing to do this for me.

 

I have everything I bought in a dropbox file.  I can share it with you, if that helps. 

 

I hope this works.  https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u20kxln66260qlo/AADq3eQjqtodvR0f4nJX9CASa?dl=0

 

Thank you :-) 

Edited 14 January , 2017 by Rachel Zaouche
add link

[Rachel Zaouche]

8 hours ago, TEW said:

The image your researcher provided came from his Officers' personal file held at The National Archives. Surprised that he says his records had been burnt when they've been located and photographed.

 

I suspect you have already 'bought' Glynn's service record in the form of 50 odd images on dropbox. Probably not much to gain by buying them direct from National Archives unless pages have been missed or are out of focus.

 

Have the images been 'shared' to your dropbox or do you have them on your own dropbox account? It may be possible to put up a link to the dropbox folder and let others have a look at the records.

 

(Note that sotonmate may be able to check them)

 

A hospital entry may not be that obvious, it could be abbreviated or in scrawly writing.

 

Just to explain a bit about his records;

He joined up into the Irish Guards as Private 6630, had he remained with the Irish Guards throughout the war or died with them during the war his set of records should have been deposited with the Guards record office. These were not burnt in Sept 1940. See here if you want to know more about the fire in Walworth. Records of all Guards were treated separately.

 

However, as he gained a commission into the Worcestershires in 1918 his records as Private 6630 of the Irish Guards would have been placed into his Officers' personal file now held at National Archives. The image you provided in post#1 shows his casualty as Private 6630 in 1916. The officer's personal file was not stored at Walworth and escaped being burnt.

 

I'm not 100% certain but I also think that as he gained a commission in a non-guards unit then the Guards Record Office won't have anything for him. Hopefully someone else could clarify that point.

 

TEW

 

 

Oh wow TEW, you have an amazing amount of knowledge.  Thank you for sharing.  I have a dropbox file I can share. I  dont know how to do it on here but am happy to share away.  I would have to make it public wouldnt I?    I got this link but dont know if it works https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u20kxln66260qlo/AADq3eQjqtodvR0f4nJX9CASa?dl=0

 

  I know he had a "temporary" commission if that changes anything. He was a batsman in the Guards so that prohibited him from becoming an officer or so I have been told!  

 

Thank you for being so helpful. 

 

Rach

 

 

[sotonmate]

No need to be amazed, there are many here who help where they can.

To look at these things is a part of the treat of attending at Kew. Good to learn of other things and poke my nose around !

[Rachel Zaouche]

1 minute ago, sotonmate said:

No need to be amazed, there are many here who help where they can.

To look at these things is a part of the treat of attending at Kew. Good to learn of other things and poke my nose around !

 

Can anyone go to Kew or do you have to be from military background?  I have so many questions LOL.   

[sotonmate]

It's the National Archives and anyone can visit. Once you arrive you enter a short computer-based process of getting a Reader's Ticket and from that point you are let loose upon the treasures. You can call up files from the storage or find digital records on the many computers there. There is also a Family History Centre and the means of downloading or copying or taking photo images. You can search their Discovery database for files or subjects before you make a visit,order them online before you visit, and some items can be downloaded from home by paying a small fee. For instance, your Officer's 2 Bn. Worcester War Diary can be obtained in this way:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353849

Edited 14 January , 2017 by sotonmate

[seaJane]

Do follow the instructions for ID though as I was nearly sent home again and had to phone my contact there to soothe Security! 

[sotonmate]

Rachel

 

I have looked through your dropbox file (neat !) and see that there is no extra data for the soldier when he was a batman (no "s" as he wasn't playing cricket though he did have a Ball to play with so to speak !) in the Irish Guards, so unless you are really fortunate you are unlikely to find where he was hospitalised/convalesced in the UK. I imagine that his wounds were dealt with in Camiers and it was just a question of recovery, which could have been in any of the many military facilities throughout the nation, or even mostly undertaken at home or Regimental Depot.

I shall now not need to see the file at Kew as I have seen it here !

[TEW]

Yes, good to see the dropbox thing worked. Fairly full set of records. Rachel, can I ask if you have access to an ancestry subscription, yours or someone else? If not it is available free from libraries. Makes a slight difference for any links.

As sotonmate says they seems to be nothing to add following his return on the HS Cambria other than he remained in the UK 16/4/1916 to 22/12/1916 which is 251 days.

 

From his records I think he was originally (as far as time abroad is concerned) 1st Bn. Irish Guards, see below the 'OC 1 IG'

He was transferred to 2nd Bn. Irish Guards 13/6/1917 to be Lt. Ball's Batman. A month later he left the battalion to seek his commission. Possibly Lt. Ball suggested this move to him.

 

There are diaries that cover his time with the 1st Bn. irish Guards which would be 1/6/1915 - 15/4/1916 and then 23/12/1916 to 13/6/1917. Almost all of that diary can be bought for £3.45 or you can view it on ancestry. It is a large diary at 194Mb. The diary may mention him by name, otherwise it will detail where his battalion was and what actions they went through.

 

On Dropbox, sheets 66, 65, 64 & 63 (in that order) detail his service & casualty history. He had a spell of illness in Sept 1915; POWO? Pleurisy and NYD (not yet diagnosed). Then in Dec 1915 he had a sprained ankle. He was then wounded in action 8/4/1916 and came home on the Cambria. Interesting that he made a will the previous week. Oddly, his will is not listed on the Soldiers' Wills website but following his death in 1918 the Army Pay Office located his will held with the Irish Guards records.

 

This makes me wonder if they may have some records still held by them at Wellington Barracks, Birdcage Walk, London SW1E 6HQ. It would cost a non-refundable £30 to make an enquiry. If they do have any records they may just more or less duplicate what you already have. In theory because he gained a commission with the Worcesters his records shouldn't be with them but the Irish Guards records located his will in Feb 1919. You could phone them on 02074143297 and explain the above scenario and they may be able to say if it's worth sending them the £30 for a search.

 

I see Martin Glynn has been on forum before 2013 includes a photo of him.

 

And to answer one of your other questions, his preferred regiments to join after gaining his commission were;

 

Thanks for the compliment but there are others here with far more knowledge than me.

TEW

[Rachel Zaouche]

TEW and sotonmate - you are both brilliant. Thank you so much. I will do as you suggested and try to find out more. I am going to ring TEW and see if I can find out about the records.

 

I am really sorry to have taken so long to come in and read what you guys took the trouble to write. I have been ill  (had the flu and it lead to secondary infection in my eyes so reading was an issue!)

 

I am also off to dig into why he was on the forum before.  We (about three cousins) are trying to piece our family together. I have been emailing Martin's nephew back and forth - pity I didnt know about him before i left Ireland.  His dad was a year younger than Martin and very very close to him.  Was devastated when he died. 

Anyway, thanks so much again.  

 

Best wishes

 

Rachel

Oh forgot to say I bought a subscription to ancestry - already had my heritage but I think ancestry is better (am I allowed say that lol)

[Rachel Zaouche]

Thanks TEW - that post was made by Michael Pegum who is doing sterling work on the Irish War Memorials site. The amount of work those people have put into the site is truly amazing.  I have a photo of Martin but wouldnt even hazard a guess on how to get it off the family tree and onto here LOL.

 

Thanks again

Rach

[TEW]

The ancestry diary for the 1st Irish Guards is on Ancestry. But bear in mind the dates of 1/6/1915 - 15/4/1916 and then 23/12/1916 to 13/6/1917 when he was with the battalion.

 

The diary is actually split into 2 diaries. June & July 1915 are here.

 

From Aug 1915 should be here. Start point is page 11 of 642, cut off point is page 263 of 642 but remember the 15/4/1916 - 23/12/1916 absence.

 

His MIC says he entered a theatre of war 2/6/1915 and having had a quick look at the dairy the 1/Irish Guards received a draft of 50 men from base on the 5th June which they say puts them at 19 men over strength. Suspect Glynn was one of the 50.

 

He may be mentioned somewhere but otherwise at least you'll get an idea of where he was, what actions he was in etc while with 1/Irish Guards.

TEW

[Rachel Zaouche]

Thanks TEW :-)  I am going to read that diary. I am currently reading about two nurses who went off to Belgium.  I get teased a lot about being so fascinated with war  - not a usual girlie topic lol.  But no matter how many books I read, I can't find the answer.  How can mankind be so cruel.   All these men (and women) who died or were horribly maimed either physically or mentally - the huge impact on the UK and other countries (all the spinsters left in the UK for example) and then twenty years later they were back at it again.  

 

I looked up Martin on the war memorial site in Ireland and  couldn't find his name listed anywhere  - not the guys from the site's fault. They can only list the names that appear on actual memorials/monuments in Ireland. Unfortunately for all sorts of reasons a lot of Irish men who fought in WW1 were just forgotten about.   Thankfully it has changed in more recent times. 

 

 

[Rachel Zaouche]

Hi guys especially TEW and Sotonmate. 

 

I eventually spoke to a delightful man at the Irish Guards number TEW gave me.  He said that Martin possibly spent the 251 days in the Irish Guards 3rd Battalion as that is where the injured and recuperating men stayed.  They are/were based in Waverly.  He said if I wanted more information I needed to contact with National Archives records to find out who his officer was and that would give me more information.  Bit unsure whether I misunderstood him or not as I found his accent difficult.   He gave me the name of a researcher Paul Bailey who he said was wonderful. So do you think if I went to Kew, I could find out more?  

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Rach

 

 

Edited 14 February , 2017 by Rachel Zaouche

[TEW]

Sounds like he may have made a guess about spending the 251 days with the 3rd battalion rather than seeing if they had a record.

 

Not sure about finding out who his officer was from TNA or what additional information that would give. His battalions are already known.

 

He was batman to 2nd Lt WH Ball, perhaps he meant to view his service record but I can't see how that helps much.

 

You could try the Paul Bailey connection but I'd suggest providing him with a link to this topic to see what's already been covered and if he feels anything could be added.

 

TEW

[PAMeyer]

Hi TEW,

 

I am new to this Forum, but have an interest in finding out where the 12 CCS was on 14 Oct 1917. My great uncle Dvr. Albert Edward Meyer, 19928, 31 Bty, 8 Field Artillery Brigade, 3 Div. AIF was wounded by shrapnel on 14 Oct 1917 around Passchendaele and died on the same day at the 12 CCS. You mentioned around this time they were at Longpre. Do you have any further information on this CCS, and were they still at Longpre on 14 October? I will be visiting Albert's grave in Mendinghem British Cemetery near Proven/Poperinge later this year, the centenary of his death. As far as I know, no family member has ever done so, and I intend to spend the day with Albert.

 

If you have no further information on the 12CCS perhaps you could steer me towards some?

 

Many thanks,

 

Peter A Meyer.

[tullybrone]

Hi Pster,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

I think you'd be better starting a brand new topic rather than tagging your question onto this one.

 

Good Luck

 

Steve Y

[sotonmate]

PAM

 

Good advice from Steve Y !

As it happens I looked at CCS12 for a Melbourne member here back in January. It was based at MENDINGHEM near PROVEN from May 1917 to Mar 1918 ( NEEDINGHEM was probably the same place as both were made up names ! There was another called BANDEGHEM, some say all to do with the medical process ! The purpose of my look was to see the extent of casualty names in the War Diary for 12CCS ( WO95/498 at the National Archives) and there weren't any, just in case you thought to look for yourself.

12 CCS is shown on CWGC as being adjacent to the Cemetery, along with several others.

Edited 26 May , 2017 by sotonmate

[PAMeyer]

sotonmate and Steve Y,

 

Thanks guys, probably good advice, but now unnecessary as my great uncle Albert is buried in Mendinghem British Cemetery, and if 12CCS was there on 14 Oct 1917 then that's all I need to know. I know he died at 12CCS from shrapnel wounds received on the same day - this is clearly noted several times in his war record, I still have the Red Cross bag with his effects, one of which is a small suede photo wallet with a shrapnel hole clear through it. Very poignant as it pierced his mother (my great grandmother) and a Miss Brewer, his English girlfriend before causing one of his mortal wounds!

 

Cheers guys and thanks,

 

Pete.

 

Edited 27 May , 2017 by PAMeyer
Context & punctuation