mcfc1923 Posted 11 December , 2004 Share Posted 11 December , 2004 Pals On the nat roll it has a soldier who served in the 6th Lan Fus, on the CWGC it has the same man served with the 16th battalion Lan Fus. confused !!!!, were they the 6th lan fus when in england and then 16th Battalion when they went to France, and were they the 2nd city Salford pals ? cheers pals jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 11 December , 2004 Share Posted 11 December , 2004 No-the 6th Battalion was a Territorial Army unit originally raised in the Rochdale area. Like many TA units it actually formed a first line battalion (1/6th) and a second-line (2/6th). 1/6th fought at Gallipoli and was then stationed in Egypt before transfer to the Western Front in 1917. 2/6th remained in England until going to the Western Front in 1917. The two battalions were merged in February 1918. 16th Battalion was a New Army 'Pals' battalion-the 2nd Salford Pals. It went out to the Western Front in November 1915 and remained there throughout the rest of the war. Your man may have transferred or it might be a typo on the National Roll. Check his entry on 'Soldiers Died...' which may give further info. My copy is not to hand at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Shattock Posted 11 December , 2004 Share Posted 11 December , 2004 Or there may have been two men with that name in the regiment, one in the 6th and the other in the 16th battalion. If you haven't already done it, I suggest you look the name up on National Archives MIC site to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drummy Posted 11 December , 2004 Share Posted 11 December , 2004 Jim, What's the lad's name and I will check it on my database of LF soldiers who sevred in the Great War, Currently 16,500 strong, still another 70 odd thousand to go. Cheers Neil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 11 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2004 Drummy, Jon, Mark, The soldiers name is Arthur Warburton, on the Nat Roll it says 'A' Warburton, PTE,6th LF, Volunteered in may 1915, he landed in France 2 months later. Died Arras April 1917, his address was 45, Higher Sheffiels Street, Ardwick, Manchester. I'm seriously starting to beleive ther may be 2 of the same name as Jon suggested, unless it's a typing error by the nat roll, because going by what Mark has said, the 6th did not land in France untill 1917, and were a TA unit raised in Rochdale. I did check the Nat Archives MIC, but at the time i was not looking for any other 'A' Warburton than the one from CWGC, whose reg num is 19578. the one i came across at the nat archives MIC was 19578 LF, but also said Labour corps as well. the sdgw and cwgc have 19578 as having died 1918 April, the sdgw has him born Ardwick, lancashire, enlisted Salford, lancashire, his forename was Arthur. going to have another look at the MIC again and see if i have missed one some where. any help is much appreciated pals. jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drummy Posted 11 December , 2004 Share Posted 11 December , 2004 1/6th Bn LF: Disembarked at Alexandria, Egypt on the 25 Sept 1914 and subsequently landed at Gallipoli with 42 Div on the 5th May 1915. 2/6th Bn LF: Landed at Havre, France on 26 Feb 1917. 3/6th Bn: LF: Served in the UK As you will see neither the 1st or 2nd Line 6th Battalion was in France in 1915. The 16th Battalion (2nd Salford) (& one of my interest's being a Salford lad) did not land until 22 November 1915 with 32 Div. I can also confirm that although he has a service number it is not from the 'block' issued to the original men of the 16th Battalion (that being 11***, 12*** and some 15***) I will check my index to biographical articles in the Manchester Evening News to see if he's mentioned. I have no other details at this time than what you know. Cheers Neil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 11 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2004 NEIL many thanks neil, that's seem to have thrown a spanner in the works. When i checked the MIC at nat archives for pte 19578, underneath the LAN FUS it also had Labour Corps 113219. Is it possible he joined the labour corps first, and then the lan fus ? Would realy appreciate anything you can come up with. many thanks neil jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 11 December , 2004 Share Posted 11 December , 2004 (edited) Jim Take a step back and a deep breath. The best evidence you have that this is your relative is the tie up with the other Warburton I found in the National Roll. Those 2 guys are obviously brothers - like your 2 relatives. They come from the right area of the City . Etc. Stick with the concept that we are right with this and try to prove it. The entry in the National Roll is likely to be the one that's wrong if anything is. That's because it was the family paid for the entry and supplied the information. Neil & Mark know more about the LFs than most folk and may be able to point a way forward. But, guys, how about Arthur originally joined the 6/LF (although I would have thought 6/Manchester would have been more likely unless he worked in Rochdale), trained with them but did not serve overseas with them. When he went overseas, he was transferred to a service battalion. Or, for some reason, he's an orginal Labour Corps man who then becomes fitter and is transferred to the LF's - as suggestedby his MIC. Either would explain why there's an otherwise inexplicable service number (wouldn't it?). John Edited 11 December , 2004 by John_Hartley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 11 December , 2004 Share Posted 11 December , 2004 OK. I'm now officially puzzled. I've had a whizz through CGWC and SDGW and I can't find anyone who fits the facts as published in the National Roll. It's odd - as you would have thought the family knew when their lad was killed. The only possible dead soldier who is anything possible is the guy Jim mentions - the one who dies in 1918. Wrong year - but he comes from the right area of the City. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 11 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2004 JOHN Been holding my breath every time an email has come through. It's so frustrating, just when you think your nearly there. It's realy strange, Arthur warburton, born 8 Dec,(same as me) lived higher sheffield street( I lived at 17 sheffield street, hulme, when i was a kid) his service number 19578,( i was born 1957, on the 8th) more mail coming through, keeping my fingers crossed. cheers john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 11 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2004 OK. I'm now officially puzzled. I've had a whizz through CGWC and SDGW and I can't find anyone who fits the facts as published in the National Roll. It's odd - as you would have thought the family knew when their lad was killed. The only possible dead soldier who is anything possible is the guy Jim mentions - the one who dies in 1918. Wrong year - but he comes from the right area of the City. pals I appologise if i have already mentioned this but with regards to the date 1917, on the website ''family search,'' (the church of jesus christ, latter day saints) I found nothing on Arthur warburton untill i tried there international index, and it came back with= birth 8th Dec 1998, manchester, Lanc, England, Death April 1917. Parents= James Warburton- Isabella Taylor. it's not 1918, but every other detail fits. it's all very strange. jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 11 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2004 OK. I'm now officially puzzled. I've had a whizz through CGWC and SDGW and I can't find anyone who fits the facts as published in the National Roll. It's odd - as you would have thought the family knew when their lad was killed. The only possible dead soldier who is anything possible is the guy Jim mentions - the one who dies in 1918. Wrong year - but he comes from the right area of the City. pals I appologise if i have already mentioned this but with regards to the date 1917, on the website ''family search,'' (the church of jesus christ, latter day saints) I found nothing on Arthur warburton untill i tried there international index, and it came back with= birth 8th Dec 1998, manchester, Lanc, England, Death April 1917. Parents= James Warburton- Isabella Taylor. it's not 1918, but every other detail fits. it's all very strange. jim sorry, the birth should have read 1898. JIM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Shattock Posted 11 December , 2004 Share Posted 11 December , 2004 Just did a search of the MIC site and it shows there were 6 Arthur Warburtons who served with the Lancashire Fusiliers. I'm not completely clear whether you know that the man in the National Roll is definitely your man. Are you sure that he is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 11 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2004 Jon On the nat roll it shows 2 men an 'A' Warburton and a 'C' Warburton who both have the same address, in Ardwick manchester. My grandfather had 2 older brothers, Arthur aged 3 in 1901 and Charles aged 4. they were all born and brought up in manchester, and that includes their father, my own father, and I was born in hulme which is a stones throw away from Ardwick. So from the start ther was always the possibility that the 2 men on the nat roll could be Arthur and Charles. with all the bits of info gathered it certainly points to him being my man, but am i definitely sure? no!!. I suppose the only option open is to get the birth and death certificate of the man on the nat roll or check the rate books and electoral register to see if my grandfathers parents were also living at the same address as the 2 men on the nat roll. (big thanks to forum pals for these suggested options) what's my next step? cheers Jon jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 11 December , 2004 Share Posted 11 December , 2004 Jim Next step is definately to check the electoral register to see who was living at the address and also check the Absent Voters List to see if there were any other A and C Warburton's away on active service from the Ardwick area. You could possibly also do with looking at the electoral roll for, say, around 1920/21 to see who was at the address. I'm not sure if these are held at Manchester Central Library or at the Greater Manchester County Records Office. A phone call to the Local Heritage Library (at Central Library) will track them down. This may or may not give you the confirmation you need. But you might as do it before you start chucking good money at a researcher to do the NA look-ups. Give me a shout off-Forum if needbe. I still have a very good feeling about this. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 11 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2004 Cheers John, I beleive it's central library i'll need to look. will give you pm in a few minutes jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 24 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 24 December , 2004 Just did a search of the MIC site and it shows there were 6 Arthur Warburtons who served with the Lancashire Fusiliers. I'm not completely clear whether you know that the man in the National Roll is definitely your man. Are you sure that he is? Checked electoral roll, and fit's perfect, the right people at the right address between 1918-20, along with all my other gathered info proves without a shadow that Arthur and Charles Warburton were my grandfathers brothers. Once again the forum pals have come up trumps, could never have done it without the guidence and info supplied by the pals. But must give a special mention to John Hartley, who was the one who found the 2 brothers on the nat roll, and who encouraged and helped me put the pieces together. Big thanks to the forum for your patience and understanding, god only knows how many times i must have asked the same questions, and god only knows how many times you all must have thought ''oh no !!, not him again'' Merry Christmas Pals, And a Happy New Year. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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