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Remembered Today:

Who is this lieutenant outside Buckingham Palace?


Blakeley

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Some clever people on the GWF can find names on ship's passenger lists. Any chance of seeing if Banting's father and sister had travelled to England around the time of the investiture?

 

Blinking heck, Blakeley, you started something with your enquiry... :) Are you still there, by the way? :)

 

Moonraker

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2 minutes ago, Moonraker said:

Some clever people on the GWF can find names on ship's passenger lists. Any chance of seeing if Banting's father and sister had travelled to England around the time of the investiture?

 

Blinking heck, Blakeley, you started something with your enquiry... :) Are you still there, by the way? :)

 

Moonraker

 

I'm most definitely here, but trying not to add anything unless I'm certain of my facts. I really do appreciate all the effort being expended on my behalf...

 

Happy New Year!

 

Blakeley

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Hi Moonraker

I've been searching the passenger lists for ages! Esther Alena Banting was married in 1915 to a John Edgar Jackson in Ontario, however there is an Essie A Banting who travelled from Liverpool on the Megantic to  Quebec arriving on 29.7.11 shown as "Ret'd Canadian" . Tree on Ancestry shows her nickname as "Essie".........

Regards Barry 

William Thompson Banting, father, born 1849 died 3.3.1928, when looking at the family photo he looks a lot thinner!

Edited by The Inspector
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Hi All

Can someone blow up the family pic in post 25, Frederick IS the boy seated right and it IS his sister Esther. If we take the beard off the father and add a hat and 20yrs?  could be.

Regards Barry 

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In the OP photo, he seems to be wearing two overseas service chevrons, indicating (if it is Banting, who won his MC in Sep 1918) that he served in France only in 1917 and 1918. Does anyone know if that fits his service record? (The one on the Canadian archives doesn't show us, but his biogragphy might if someone can access the right pages).

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Munce posted the above just as I was laboriously compiling this post.

 

A new year, and I suspect we're running out of steam! Some people see a weakness around the left eye of the definite Banting, others do not; some see such a weakness in the original "mystery man" photo, others do not. Someone here on GWF doubts that the mystery officer is British; someone on the CEFSG wonders if he really is Canadian.

 

I've now looked at Banting's service record. I note that he was 5ft 11in tall, which would make the woman in the original photo also quite tall. An entry for April 1917 refers to him as "Lieut (Capt rates)", another for "9 12 over 17", presumably December 12, 1917, (I can't reproduce the last two figures as they are shown in the records) notes him as "T/Capt". At the time of his wounding and during his treatment, he is referred to as "Captain", but he may well have been only a substantive lieutenant at the time of his investiture. The mystery man has two service stripes. At first I thought that these denoted two complete years of overseas service, but I now think that the first was awarded for being overseas, with no qualifying period? Banting arrived from Canada on April 25, 1917, and sailed back there on February 22, 1919, a week after being awarded (presumably presented with) the MC.

 

Please feel free to check the above for yourself.  The service record is not always easy to decipher as "Readable view" is not available for the document, and my own eyesight is not great. I'm also slightly out of my comfort zone when it comes to service stripes.

 

Has anyone thought to try to match the badges Banting would have worn against the original image?

 

Moonraker

Edited by Moonraker
second thoughts
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It's doin' me 'ead in.

 

As the originator of the Banting theory, I still find the greatest weakness in my suggestion as being the fact that the mystery man's cap and collar badges are not CAMC. Their badge.was a full wreath of small maple leaves surrounding the familiar snake on a stick. (Staff of Aescepilus or something like that - still on the mobile phone which makes checking a bit awkward.)

 

Edited by Stoppage Drill
Description CAMC badge
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At least we're leaning a lot about Frederick Banting, a very worthy soldier and civilian.

 

And what better way to start the New Year than co-operating with our comrades on the CEFSG?

 

Moonraker

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I've just seen the full service record downloadable from the Canadian archives site, rather than the two pages on the site itself. Wow, if only British versions survived in such detail! I've also checked the rules for Canadian overseas service chevrons, which in WW1 were awarded for service in the UK as well as in France. So, given that he served in the UK from April 1917, even though he only did 5 months in France, he would qualify for his second in April 1918, denoting the beginning of his second year overseas.

 

Doesn't get us around the cap badge issue, of course. I think the cap badge itself could possibly be the CAMC, but the collar dogs don't seem likely candidates.

Edited by munce
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For those not familiar with the Canadian system, here is a direct link to his service record.

http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?op=pdf&app=CEF&id=B0414-S041

 

Note for those with vision equal to mine that if you drag your  mouse to the lower right of the monitor the ZOOM feature will appear. Here are the primary pages of the record as an image. It shows Temporary Captain 9 December 1917 before leaving Canada.

 

Interesting letter at the end of the file telling of his start as a Private and granted leave for Medical School at the University of Toronto.

 

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8clv2cxvu7253k76g.jpg

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Finally found a reference to Banting in the War Diary and it clearly refers to him as a Captain, so to me that means that is the end of the speculation about the Lieutenant: (see September 14th - no mention later of his wounding - found it)

 

e001508428.jpg

 

He then went forward to INCHY on the 21st to look for a forward Advanced Dressing Station:

 

e001508429.jpg

 

Back to the ADS on the 26th:

 

e001508431.jpg

 

His name was smudged, I see it now where he is wounded on the 28th:

 

e001508432.jpg

Edited by laughton
adding war diary pages as located
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I almost hesitate to say this, but would a war diary refer to a man's substantive or temporary rank? And which would the London Gazette would use - or would it be "Lieutenant (Temporary Captain)"? And would an officer wear the insignia of his temporary rank?

 

Do I really want to take us send you down those sidetracks? Not really.

 

With his active military career nearing its end, I'm inclined to believe guess that Banting was a substantive captain at the time of his investiture.

 

Moonraker

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Just noticed reference to the award LG 31480:

 

ys10da1i61627jd6g.jpg

 

1a0xl1x9ht3m9516g.jpg

 

 

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Hi All

Post 62, last entry Sailing List 23  shows the complete nominal roll of Officers and men sailing on the SS Belgic, tried to paste but no joy. Arrived Halifax, Nova Scotia on 1.3.19.

Regards Barry

Edited by The Inspector
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Hi Again

Just a bit more....

IF the female in the OP pic. is Esther Alena Banting then, I think, it will be dated after 2.6.1918 as at that time she was in Hillandale, Ontario giving birth to her son Frederick Grant Jackson. He later joined the Canadian Air Force (J/6209) and was killed in India in a flying accident on 4.8.1944.   

Regards Barry

Have sent a PM on Ancestry to one of the tree owners who has photos to see what he can add to the debate.

Talk about "doin my ead in".....I thought I'd look at his headgear. Photos of CAMC officers don't appear with floppy caps but our man does, just like this one,   No doubt someone will tell me there were hundreds like this......still looking though!! Cap

I think Dragoon may be right...after all.

10th Bn Canadian Railway Troops collar badges and Canadian Engineers cap badge???

Edited by The Inspector
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I've had a closer look at the photo on the OP and the cap and collars are not CAMC. Yes it looks like Fred Banting, but the badges say different. They scream 10th Canadian Railway Troops. Sorry to put a spanner in the works.   Attached, cap badge, collars as my original post.                Chris

$_1.JPG

Edited by Dragoon
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4 hours ago, Dragoon said:

I've had a closer look at the photo on the OP and the cap and collars are not CAMC. Yes it looks like Fred Banting, but the badges say different. They scream 10th Canadian Railway Troops. Sorry to put a spanner in the works.   Attached, cap badge, collars as my original post.                Chris

$_1.JPG

 

I wish the photograph was just a little clearer; being able to identify the cap and collar badges would make all the difference to this quest. I agree with Dragoon that they do appear to resemble the 10th C.R.T. badge.

 

Buckingham Palace (Head) MC GB88111.jpg

Edited by Blakeley
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This London Gazette of 19 November 1917 appears to give the names of those officers of Canadian Railway Troops who had been awarded the M.C. up until that date. It does not give their Battalion numbers, unfortunately. It would appear, from the wording, that they had been gazetted earlier as Canadian Engineers and not Railway Troops. Some more names to play with!  

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30389/supplement/11959

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what is the item hanging from his right breast pocket in op photo,

 something of military use or personal, does it have any significance!

Image2 jpeg.jpg

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14 hours ago, HarryBrook said:

This London Gazette of 19 November 1917 appears to give the names of those officers of Canadian Railway Troops who had been awarded the M.C. up until that date ...

Five of the lieutenants' surnames start with a letter in the first half of the alphabet, so their service records may now be digitised. The others' attestation papers should also be available on-line, though these usually indicate only a soldiers' first posting. I'm quite busy at the moment, otherwise I would look them up. of course, there could be other Railway Troops officers who were awarded the MC, and we would also need an image to match (or try to match) to the original photo.

 

Moonraker

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Here is one Lieutenant who was definitely 10th Bn. Canadian Railway Troops, and who was invested with the M.C. at Buckingham Palace - Robert Luxton.

Although 10th Bn. is not given in the London Gazette notification of his M.C. in the list published on 18 February 1918, or in his citation which was published in the Gazette of 16 July 1918 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30801/supplement/8481 it was given in the pre-publication London Gazette notices, see image. He is named in the report, in The Times of Thursday, 12 September 1918, of the investiture held by H.M. the King in the quadrangle of Buckingham Palace on 11 September. 

Luxton, Lt. Robert, M.C., 10th Can. Ry. Troops, LG 18.2.1918.JPG

 

Edit to add: The decoration was awarded for an action at Ypres on 5 December 1917.

Edited by HarryBrook
Missed the word 'Palace'!
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Found Lt Robert Luxton on the Canadian Great War Project,

Born 12 March1882 Taunton, England.

Enlisted 17 March 1916, Ontario.

Age 34, Height 5ft 6in

Married to Maria Emma, found a marriage at Salsbury, England, on Freebmd 1901 

To Maria Emma Chandler, a birth found for her at Islington in 1877.

 

He was awarded an MC citation date 18 Feb 1918 

 

 

 

 

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