heatherannej Posted 18 December , 2016 Share Posted 18 December , 2016 Hi ... whilst researching my Home Hospitals (within 20 miles of Colchester) I have discovered a newspaper article about this patient at the Wherstead Park Hospital, Ipswich:- "Cameron Highlander Regimental Sergeant-Major McKinnon" -? MacKinnon? of the 5th Battalion. He won a D.C.M. in South Africa on 27 September 1901 and another D.C.M. for his action at the Battle of Loos and same day in 1915 (27 September). In the Ipswich newspaper, he is hailed as one of the heroes of Loos but I cannot positively identify him. He had served 25 years in the Cameron Highlanders; had retired; and, in his native Dunblane, he had become an instructor at the Queen Victoria School - but he re-enlisted as soon as the First World War began. He has a fellow patient - a Seaforth Highlander and a friend from the days of Loos - Sergeant Arton. They were pleased to be re-united especially as the odds at Wherstead were slim because it only had 12 beds. When I come across someone, I try and add a little about them but I am stumped here. Any help would be much appreciated. Many thanks Heather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 18 December , 2016 Share Posted 18 December , 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, heatherannej said: Hi ... whilst researching my Home Hospitals (within 20 miles of Colchester) I have discovered a newspaper article about this patient at the Wherstead Park Hospital, Ipswich:- "Cameron Highlander Regimental Sergeant-Major McKinnon" -? MacKinnon? of the 5th Battalion. He won a D.C.M. in South Africa on 27 September 1901 and another D.C.M. for his action at the Battle of Loos and same day in 1915 (27 September). In the Ipswich newspaper, he is hailed as one of the heroes of Loos but I cannot positively identify him. He had served 25 years in the Cameron Highlanders; had retired; and, in his native Dunblane, he had become an instructor at the Queen Victoria School - but he re-enlisted as soon as the First World War began. He has a fellow patient - a Seaforth Highlander and a friend from the days of Loos - Sergeant Arton. They were pleased to be re-united especially as the odds at Wherstead were slim because it only had 12 beds. When I come across someone, I try and add a little about them but I am stumped here. Any help would be much appreciated. Many thanks Heather Likely this man who apparently won the Bar in Sep 1915 http://www.angloboerwar.com/medals-and-awards/british/241-dcm EDIT: I can't see any Cameron winning a DCM in Sep 1915 on the Ancestry DCM list. Craig Edited 18 December , 2016 by ss002d6252 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heatherannej Posted 18 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 18 December , 2016 Hi Craig ... so it will be the bar to his 1901 D.C.M. he was awarded in September 1915 .... thanks for the ID on him - much appreciated. Heather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 18 December , 2016 Share Posted 18 December , 2016 8 minutes ago, heatherannej said: Hi Craig ... so it will be the bar to his 1901 D.C.M. he was awarded in September 1915 .... thanks for the ID on him - much appreciated. Heather A second award would be given as a Bar to the original medal. As I say though he doesn't seem to appear in Ancestry's list of the DCM registers that I can see so it may need a check through the London Gazette to verify it. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 18 December , 2016 Share Posted 18 December , 2016 I reckon this is him http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1262/30850_A001016-00302/3456022?backurl=%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dMedalRolls%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26_F00061C3%3dCameron%26_F8007A65%3d10716%26_F8007A65_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3d000&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults claim for the emblem sent on a nominal roll from the Commandant Queen Victoria School noted on his MIC. This is his DCM Bar card http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1262/30850_A001818-06271/2999894?backurl=%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dMedalRolls%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26_F00061C3%3dCameron%26_F8007A65%3d10716%26_F8007A65_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3d000&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults showing a Gazette date of 01/04/1916 with his DCM date of 27/09/1901. As you see both name him as McKinnon, the former giving his number as S/10716 the latter 10716, so the story of the Bar being awarded on the same date 14 years later is wrong. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heatherannej Posted 18 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 18 December , 2016 Hello roughdiamond .... wow, thanks for that. I did look for him but I was looking for the number "2541" ... Is it the notes "Clasp AO 1-4-16 A28-80" that determines that "the same date 14 years later is wrong"? You wouldn't think a man would relate the coincidence of the two dates inaccurately .... Thanks .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 18 December , 2016 Share Posted 18 December , 2016 6 minutes ago, heatherannej said: Hello roughdiamond .... wow, thanks for that. I did look for him but I was looking for the number "2541" ... Is it the notes "Clasp AO 1-4-16 A28-80" that determines that "the same date 14 years later is wrong"? You wouldn't think a man would relate the coincidence of the two dates inaccurately .... Thanks .... As he had left the army and later re-enlisted then he'd be given a new service number. What a man said and how it was reported are often two different things - the general rule of thumb is not to take any newspaper report on face value alone and to verify as much as possible. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 18 December , 2016 Share Posted 18 December , 2016 35 minutes ago, heatherannej said: Is it the notes "Clasp AO 1-4-16 A28-80" that determines that "the same date 14 years later is wrong"? Clasp = Bar to the DCM, 1-4-16 should be the date the award of the Bar was printed in the London Gazette. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heatherannej Posted 18 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 18 December , 2016 24 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: the general rule of thumb is not to take any newspaper report on face value alone and to verify as much as possible I agree entirely ... which is why I value the GWF members' expert advice so much :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heatherannej Posted 18 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 18 December , 2016 1 minute ago, roughdiamond said: date the award of the Bar was printed in the London Gazette. I know a notification in the London Gazette can relate to an incident months back ... ss002d6252's entry Notes quote 25-27 September 1915 and the DCM card mentions 27.9.1901 for the South Africa War so am I right to believe the newspaper? It is an account of an interview McKinnon reluctantly gave to an Ipswich newspaper ... "... During the terrible fighting at Loos, the Camerons lost heavily, particularly in officers, and it was then that Sergeant-Major McKinnon was called to exert his powers of leadership, and played the part which won for him the D.C.M. It was a most remarkable coincidence that on the same day (27th September), in 1901, he won the D.C.M. in the South African war at Zande, near Bloemfontein. ..." The article is a long one and describes in more detail what McKinnon and his fellow Scots experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heatherannej Posted 18 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 18 December , 2016 I am finding it difficult to read a couple of the words written on the back of Alexander McKinnon's Medal Card and understand them in the whole: "Commandant Queen Victoria School ? ? roll if Indiv[idual] entitled to the emblem 28.1.20" ... Alexander had worked at the Queen Victoria School in Dunblane after he had come out of the Army after 25 years, and before he re-enlisted. Is he actually donating his medals to the school or is he just nominating the Commandant as someone who his medals could be sent to? Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 19 December , 2016 Share Posted 19 December , 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, heatherannej said: I am finding it difficult to read a couple of the words written on the back of Alexander McKinnon's Medal Card and understand them in the whole: "Commandant Queen Victoria School ? ? roll if Indiv[idual] entitled to the emblem 28.1.20" ... Alexander had worked at the Queen Victoria School in Dunblane after he had come out of the Army after 25 years, and before he re-enlisted. Is he actually donating his medals to the school or is he just nominating the Commandant as someone who his medals could be sent to? Many thanks Unabbreviated, it reads - "Commandant Queen Victoria School FORWARDS NOMINAL roll OF INDIVIDUALS entitled to the emblem" - basically the head of the school is submitting a rough list of people who appear to be entitled to the emblem. Edited 19 December , 2016 by Andrew Upton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 19 December , 2016 Share Posted 19 December , 2016 (edited) Found his Gazette entry dated 11th March 1916 not 1st April https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29503/supplement/2737 I have the Gazette list from the National Archives on a drive at home, in many cases it has a handwritten annotation with the place and date of the action, I'll have a look later. This is the LG entry for his DCM https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27359/page/6319 at that time they didn't include a citation. I'm not sure if the page here https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27359/page/6303 is stating the actions took place 29th November 1900 when it states "In recognition of their services during the operations in South Africa, The whole to bear sure 29th November 1900, except where otherwise stated", I'm thinking not. I meant to ask if you were aware of the role of the Queen Victoria School in Dunblane? Sam Edited 19 December , 2016 by roughdiamond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted 19 December , 2016 Share Posted 19 December , 2016 (edited) From the Stirling Saturday Observer 1.pdf 1.pdf Edited 19 December , 2016 by Dragoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 19 December , 2016 Share Posted 19 December , 2016 (edited) Found the entry in the NA DCM lists and it does indeed give a location and date or in this case locations and dates as you can see below, it reads "25/9/15 Fosse 8, Corons de Pekin and 27/9/15 in the Redoubt". In this link http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/battles-of-the-western-front-in-france-and-flanders/the-battle-of-loos/ on the Battle of Loos from "The Long Long Trail" if you scroll down to where it has 25th September 1915 then "9th (Scottish) Division" in bold, you will see mention of the 5th Camerons who were 26th Brigade 9th Div and find that "Fosse 8" was pit buildings, "Corons and Pekin" were German trench lines as well as a Corons de Pekin being a group of cottages and "The Redoubt" refers to the overall position, the Hohenzollern Redoubt. So the action that led to the award of the Bar was 27th Sept 1916 ish! whether the action that led to the award of the DCM was 27th Sept 1900 is one for a Boer War Camerons expert. One wee bit of trivia, it was a firing squad from the Camerons who executed Lt's Harry "Breaker" Morant and Peter Handcock 27th Feb 1902. Sam r Edited 19 December , 2016 by roughdiamond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heatherannej Posted 25 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 25 December , 2016 WOW .... thank you one and all. I shall digest all this new information and I can add it to Alexander's profile. Many, many thanks indeed. Seasonal Greetings to you. Heather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heatherannej Posted 25 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 25 December , 2016 P.S. On 12/19/2016 at 12:44, roughdiamond said: I meant to ask if you were aware of the role of the Queen Victoria School in Dunblane? Sam I wasn't aware of that, Sam ... I did contact the School to ask if they had anything in their archives that they could contribute when I started posting here but the seasonal holidays have delayed any reply. Thanks. Heather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emo924 Posted 3 May , 2017 Share Posted 3 May , 2017 Hi all going back to the first post would anyone know the full name of the Ipswich newspaper referred to and the date and/or where a copy of the article might be found. cheers Chis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emo924 Posted 6 May , 2017 Share Posted 6 May , 2017 Not necessary now - had overlooked the link above sand have now found it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heatherannej Posted 6 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2017 The Stirling Observer - Saturday 12 February 1916 quoted the 5 February 1916 article of the Evening Star, Ipswich. I have saved and transcribed the latter's article. Heather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o j kirby Posted 2 June , 2017 Share Posted 2 June , 2017 Hello, I am currently working as a supply teacher in Queen Victoria School. I will make some enquiries. Owain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emo924 Posted 24 June , 2018 Share Posted 24 June , 2018 A bit late in the day perhaps but I came across this post whilst I was researching Alexander Mackinnon. I acquired a gold plated pocket watch presented to him in 1919. The watch is engraved on it's outer case : For Honour Gained - In - The Great War - Alex. McKinnon - DCM & Bar - Dunblane 1919. His medal entitlement would have been extensive : DCM/Queen's and Khedive's Sudan/QSA-KSA/LSGC He had a fascinating military history. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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