Waffenfabrik Mauser 98/05 bayonets

[trajan]

I love Waffenfabrik Mauser 98/05 bayonets… Well, in a way I have to as they are the most common ones to be found here in Turkey and Syria - thanks to the decision of the German War Ministry to send some 116,000+ of these ‘Butcher blades’ to Turkey, most of these arriving in 1917…

 

Thanks to a section on bayonets in Dieter Stortz’ excellent book on the Gew.98, plus a few other sources, I am now beginning to get to know these ones better. So I thought I’d start a thread exclusively to share information about them, the information here coming from Stortz.

 

So, for starters, as I understand it, as early as 11th December 1914, the Prussian War Ministry was already demanding an increase in the production of 98/05’s, which had become the bayonet of choice among those at the front. Apparently this order was directed at Mauser, DWM, and the Suhl consortium, with Mauser and DWM to produce 800,000 each, and another 400,000 contracted to the Suhl consortium (basically the Schilling, Haenel, and Sauer and Sohn concerns), so making two million 98/05’s in all.

 

As it is, DWM did not make any bayonets, while Mauser at Oberndorf did not start producing these 98/05’s until after 13th July 1915. This is shown by the way that no 98/05 a.A. Waffenfabrik bayonet has ever been reported. All of the earliest known examples, i.e., with (19)15 inspection stamps, are 98/05 n.A., and so fitted with the flash guard introduced on the 13th July 1915 for all newly manufactured 98/05’s. However, the records show that the Prussian War Ministry did not receive any Mauser 98/05’s until May 1916, when 6,090 were delivered. Evidently Mauser were rather slow in the required tooling up process, and so actual production might not have started until towards the end of 1915. As it is, the documents available for Fichtel & Sachs in Schwein­furt, who began the production of the 98/05 in May 1915, reveal how tooling up for the production of something new resulted in their case to as few as 20 bayonets a day being completed in their first year of production…

 

Back in Oberndorf, things started to get going with 373,100 being made by the end of 1916, and another 493,900 being produced in 1917, of which 116,000 were dispatched to the Ottoman Empire. This number for 1917 indicates a production rate of 1,700-1,900 per day per 6-day week… By November 1918, Mauser had produced a total of 1,105,962 98/05’s, with 238,962 being made in 1918, and about 66,357 of that grand total, being saw-backs. All of these bayonets presumably came with the standard Oberndorf-made metal scabbard, which have on the reverse a smaller version of the maker’s stamp as found on the bayonet’s ricassoes. As for costing, well the final bill to the Prussian War Ministry for the total 1,105,962 was 11,699,609.90 marks, and so the average unit cost (I assume with scabbards) was around 10.50 RM.

 

I'll post up some of my examples when time and kids permit, but in the meantime, I'll be happy to see what others have!

 

Julian

Edited 16 December , 2016 by trajan
Revising formatting!

[trajan]

Just to be going on, borrowed from the web for reference purposes, a sample of the ricasso marking, and a sample of the scabbard marking - of which there are three versions... Note the place name given as Oberndorf a/N for Oberndorf am Neckar

[trajan]

Oh, and note also... I have never come across a Waffenfabrik 98/05 with a unit-marking, which were officially dropped in August 1914, and then again ordered to be left of weapons in 1915/1916... Anyone out there got one such item?

 

Julian

[JMB1943]

Trajan,

Could you also post a full-length & a hilt shot so that us neophytes will know it when we see one ?

Regards,

JMB

[trajan]

13 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Trajan,

Could you also post a full-length & a hilt shot so that us neophytes will know it when we see one ?

Regards,

JMB

 

Will do! It just so happened that this morning brought the delivery of a 1915 example with some kind of unit marking on the crossguard - didn't have a chance to look at it properly as I had to go into town, but it is certainly not a regular-style one... I'll try and do a photograph of that one when I get back home later. Not the best looking of examples, but 1915 examples are uncommon enough to make it worth adding to its peers... 

 

Julian

[trajan]

Well, I thought I'd start with this relic, a 98/05 n.A m.S., as it is the one that got me started on bayonets again after a 40 or so year gap from my teens (I had some lovely Chassepot and P.1907's back then!).

 

This one was found in Palmyra in 2009, and I joined GWF two years later to find out more about it, as later the same year I got two more of these W/fabrik 98/05's with scabbards in pristine condition in Damascus .

 

It is impossible to photograph the marks right now (sunshine brings them out!) but it is a W/fabrik and it is a W/17, and so one of those that went to the Ottomans' that year.

 

 

Edited 17 December , 2016 by trajan

[trajan]

And this is what turned up today... Not the best of conditions, and a non-German frog (any ideas?), but a rareish 1915 one. Note how the 'muzzle rest' has a number '1' there, as is sometimes found on all kinds of 98/05's, and which is some form of control marking - the press-stud is rusted on this one and so I can't see if there is a marking there.The screws, etc., don't seem to be fraktur-marked, and I need to check if these are present on any other W/fabrik ones - I can't recall any, but some makers were using fraktur-marked screws and press-studs into 1917 and (I think) 1918...

 

Odd thing is the serial number on the crossguard... It is "6.159"... Lettering size is standard for the usual official markings, with the '6' being what there is for a regiment type designation, the rest is right for company and weapon number... It is not a Reichswehr marking, nor a Riechispolizei one...

 

Only other thing to add about this one is the limited work on sharpening the false edge, this being ordered by the Prussian War Ministry on 16 September 1915 for a length of about 4 cm.

 

  

[motojosh]

Here's my only unit marked one (W16)

[Michael Haselgrove]

Motojosh,

A very nice example.  I don't have enough information on unit markings and am struggling with the one on your bayonet.  Does it translate to "16th Landwehr Company (or Regiment?) attached to a Field Artillery Regiment Munitions Column, 1st Company, Weapon 154" or at least something like that?

Julian,

This thread has given me an idea.  Might it be interesting to start a thread on all the manufacturers of the S.98/05 taking them in alphabetical order as set out at page 91 of Carter Vol.I. but merging the Bavarian manufacturers with the others so we start with Amberg and finish with Weyersberg?  Just a thought but if you, and hopefully others, think it worthwhile it would at least mean that we have as much information as possible in one thread.

Regards,

Michael.    

 

 

[motojosh]

On 12/19/2016 at 03:20, Michael Haselgrove said:

Motojosh,

A very nice example.  I don't have enough information on unit markings and am struggling with the one on your bayonet.  Does it translate to "16th Landwehr Company (or Regiment?) attached to a Field Artillery Regiment Munitions Column, 1st Company, Weapon 154" or at least something like that?

 

 

Thanks Michael and that was my interpretation of the marking as well. Excellent idea on the 98/05 manufacturer thread.

[trajan]

On 12/19/2016 at 14:20, Michael Haselgrove said:

... Does it translate to "16th Landwehr Company (or Regiment?) attached to a Field Artillery Regiment Munitions Column, 1st Company, Weapon 154" or at least something like that?

 

... Might it be interesting to start a thread on all the manufacturers of the S.98/05 taking them in alphabetical order as set out at page 91 of Carter Vol.I. but merging the Bavarian manufacturers with the others so we start with Amberg and finish with Weyersberg?  Just a thought but if you, and hopefully others, think it worthwhile it would at least mean that we have as much information as possible in one thread.

 

On 12/22/2016 at 11:33, motojosh said:

Thanks Michael and that was my interpretation of the marking as well. Excellent idea on the 98/05 manufacturer thread.

 

Been stuck with my other 'official' activities recently, hence the late reply - sorry...

 

Thanks Josh, though, for that W/16 one! I know of only three other 1916 marked 98/05's, and this is the first Waffenfabrik... The others (all from Noll) are:

L.A.19.7.20 = Land.Feld.Art.Reg.19.Batt.7.Waffe.20; 

B.2.J = Bay.Jaeger.Bata.Waffe 2;

JR.605.4K.109 = Inf.Reg.605.Komp.4.Waffe.109

 

Well, 16.A.L.M.K.1.154 could well be, I think(!), more-or-less as you two have divined. But note that in theory with the regiment number at the start, and with 'M' as (per the Prussian 1910 regulations) on its own for 'Munitions-kolonne', then perhaps something along the lines of 16 Feld Artillerie Regiment, Munitions-kolonne, Landwehr-Kompagnie 1, Waffe 154.  But the the Bavarian regulations issued at the end of 1910 prescribe 'M.K' for 'Leichte Munitions-kolonne'... 

 

Yes, I like the idea of a 98/05 thread, as that is what I mainly have! So, let's see what can be done come the New Year - my university 'winter break' starts mid-January, I think!

 

Best wishes to you both!

 

Julian

[Guest]

Hi

I have a Waffenfabrik Bayonet and am trying to find out ore about it and get an idea of it's value.

It has 4084 stamped on the same side as Waffenfabrik.

I also have a similar looking bayonet(?) that has H58926 stamped on it.

They are both in very good condition.

Would you guys be able to help me?

 

 Thanks in advance

[GWF1967]

Not mine, for sale in a local antique shop. 

[trajan]

On 1/22/2018 at 22:53, LS1 said:

... I have a Waffenfabrik Bayonet and am trying to find out more about it ... It has 4084 stamped on the same side as Waffenfabrik. I also have a similar looking bayonet(?) that has H58926 stamped on it.

 

Hello and welcome!

 

The Waffenfabrik bayonet numbers...  Their purpose is unknown but they have been noted on other 98/05 bayonets and also on some other ones as well. There is a suspicion they might be related to Bavaria, as that State often stamped their own serial numbers on bayonets. On the spine or back of this bayonet close to the crossguard there will be a series of stamps - a crown above a letter for the king whose country the bayonet was made for (probably "W" for Wilhelm II of Prussia); an abbreviated manufacturing date, either (19)16, 17, or 18; and a crown and a "Gothic" letter, the fraktur, indicating the name of the inspector who confirmed it for army issue. It will probably be "17" when most of these Mauser ones were made, but could be a year earlier or later!

 

The second bayonet is French. Not my thing at all, but looks to be for a modèle 1866 "Chassepot" - it should say on the blade spine who made it and when.

 

Trajan

[Guest]

Thanks for your replies.

 

Would you guys be able to help me with the best way to sell these and what they might be worth?

 

TIA

[trajan]

Can't help there except to suggest that you try the usual places - ebay and delcampe - forvalue and selling. It is impossible to value a piece without seeing it, and although the value of a standard 98/05 Waffenfabrik will be X, it could be Y to a collector who knows what s/he is looking for...

[trajan]

Just managed to get another W/16... Still looking for more W/15 examples....

[zuluwar2006]

Julian

Here are 2 unit marked examples from my collection with waffenFabrik Mauser manufacturer. 

Regards

D. 

[Amberg]

Hello,

as a side note:

Mauser Oberndorf never ever made any SG 98/05 bayonets.

All Mauser marked bayonet were manufactured by: “Unionwerk Mea G.m.b.H. Elektrotechnishe Fabrik Eisenwerk” at Feuerbach (northwestern suburb of Stuttgart) .

For more details, please have a look at:

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?17473-Mauser-Oberndorf-Sg98-05-Bayonet-Production-during-World-War-I

 

Thanks

Wolfgang

[trajan]

16 hours ago, Amberg said:

Hello,

as a side note:

Mauser Oberndorf never ever made any SG 98/05 bayonets.

All Mauser marked bayonet were manufactured by: “Unionwerk Mea G.m.b.H. Elektrotechnishe Fabrik Eisenwerk” at Feuerbach (northwestern suburb of Stuttgart) .

For more details, please have a look at:

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?17473-Mauser-Oberndorf-Sg98-05-Bayonet-Production-during-World-War-I

 

Thanks

Wolfgang

 

Hi Wolfgang,

 

I replied quickly last night on the thread you linked me to - very informative and I see that I have duplicated much of the work done by 'Slash' and others. I had heard - from Roy Williams I think it was - that Mauser had contracted out the production of these ones, but I didn't know who too, which is why I was planning a trip to Germany to go though the Mauser archives - once I know where they are! But a few googles brought up also Jon Speeds 'Mauser Archives' book so I have ordered that and get stuck into it first.

 

I was astounded to see that photograph of a S.98/05 a.A. with high ears! I have never heard of one of those before - but there again, I only got into this 'game' less than eight years ago, so I am still on the learning curve.

 

I am minded to challenge, though, the comments that WF bayonets were/are relatively rare... That might be true on the western front, where I suppose most of those now in the USA originated, but to my mind, the Mauser contract dominated S.98/05 production from April 1915- 1918. I do know that large quantities of WF ones came over here in 1917 in what I think of as 'the Turkey contract', and the S.98/05 was the single most common bayonet type used in the army of the Turlish Republic up to the late 1930's, and so many could well be MWF ones.

 

But, most of all, many, many thanks for putting me in sight of that thread - I learnt lots there on a subject I though I knew pretty well!

 

Julian

[Amberg]

Hello Julian,

It is always a pleasure to be helpful to other collectors.

 

If you want to see any documents from the Mauser archive, you will have to visit Jon Speed. I think he got the complete archive.

BTW: He lives in Germany. ;-)

 

Thanks

Wolfgang

 

 

[trajan]

23 hours ago, Amberg said:

Hello Julian,

It is always a pleasure to be helpful to other collectors. ...  If you want to see any documents from the Mauser archive, you will have to visit Jon Speed. I think he got the complete archive. ...  BTW: He lives in Germany. ;-)

 

Guten Abend Wolfgang,

 

Yes, I totally agree on the need and the pleasure of helping others in the collecting field - and what is more I am very keen on spreading wider but secure nowledge about these bayonet things. There is so much garbage and 'collector's talk' on the internet - and here sometimes - that I get really angry on that. Being an archaeologist and a Roman military specialist by occupation I want to help and encourage provide collectors who use this web-site and others with properly researched information about their own material. And we can build up accurate knowledge only by sharing our material and by using sources rather than belief. 

 

I was looking into Waffenfabrik's in particular as I wanted to get to grips with these and their prevalence in Turkey. Yes, I realise and can uderstand that members on the K98 web-site might doubt the comparative "rarity" of these products and so their importance compared to other marks - i.e., WF productivity. But, there again, you don't find many of Hadrian's "Britannia" coins of 119/125 outside of Britain - because they were issued as small change in Britannia! And WF DID make over a million of the things, so - off the top of my head - not far off the number of German troops under arms.

 

Well, my plans were to be in Munich in January to check on the history of the S.98-05 at the archives, using Ehrle first as my primer then Carter, and then to establish where the Mauser archives might be to go through these for the relevant information on the "Turkish contracts", for which Stortz in his Gew.98 book provides a starter. But clearly Jon Speed is a key person to see on that journey - if amenable

 

By the way - Ich kann gut deutsch lesen: aber ich spreche es oder schreibe es nicht so gut - in der Tat, ganz schrecklich!

 

Julian

[Amberg]

Hello Julian,

merhaba arkadaş

Many years ago a work mate tried to teach me some Turkish with very little success. ;-)

I could not agree more to what you said about the garbage being spread on the internet and the need of a true collectors network! 

Another problem we face, is that some collectors do not share their knowledge. Especially over here in Germany. Sometimes I'm speechless!

Somewhere I have some documents about the 98/05 from the Bavarian state archive. I'll dig them out for you.

I'll also contact Jon Speed to find out if he has some spare time for you in January.  He does not live fare from my home. Let you know via PM.

 

If you (or anybody else) can find out more about the Mauser sniper rifles that came back from Turkey, please drop me a line.

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?7081-WW1-Oberndorf-Gew-98-Sniper-Rifle-Research

Talk to you soon.

 

Thanks

Wolfgang

 

[trajan]

13 hours ago, Amberg said:

... a work mate tried to teach me some Turkish with very little success... garbage being spread on the internet... Another problem we face, is that some collectors do not share their knowledge. Especially over here in Germany. Sometimes I'm speechless! Somewhere I have some documents about the 98/05 from the Bavarian state archive. I'll dig them out for you. ... I'll also contact Jon Speed to find out if he has some spare time for you in January.  He does not live fare from my home. Let you know via PM. ...the Mauser sniper rifles that came back from Turkey, please drop me a line. ...

 

Hi Wolfgang, Turkche chok zor, ama Almanca kolay!

 

My students continue to be amazed that I can get read German and Spanish easily, and can speak both - if ungammatically! - well enough to get by, but have such problems with Turkish even after 22 years here...

 

Anyway, to bayonets. GWForum has always been pretty reliable with information as there are enough serious collectors here, with the literature and knowledge to back up claims, but that unwillingness to share information is a problem here also sometimes - if rarely. For example, I have helped one member collect serial numbers and makers of Turkish bayonets but he consistently refused to share his data with me or others - even closed the relevant threads he had opened and removed his own photographs from them! On the other hand GWF member JMB received a fair degree of help from other GWF members when collecting details for the article in Arms and Armour  on P.1907 bayonet weights that he essentially wrote and which I contributed to. By the way, I plan to do something similar for WF bayonets also, but I have - I realise! - a long way to go!

 

The documents from the Bavarian State Archive - if that is the material collected by Franz Ehle then I have that photocopied. I want to go to Munich specifically to read through the originals as he only gives the bits he is interested in. This is with special reference to the introduction of the 'Ersatz' and S.84/98 bayonets, and also the documents relevant to the '1920' mark. I would also like, however, to check up on the doings of the Bayerische Eisenbahn units on the Western front - I have a set of photographs relating to the Bay.Eisenbahn Betriebs Komp. 4 some of them dated and with locations that I'd like to work through.

 

If you would contact Jon Speed that would be wonderful! My time is not my own, of course, as with two young boys I basically only have the summer university vacation as my 'free time' - if I am not teaching summer school! And I am supposed to concentrate on articles relevant to my teaching... But, where do you and Jon live? 

 

Finally, Mauser sniper rifles coming to Turkey... Sorry, but I have no knowledge at all of these!

 

Best wishes,

 

Julian

[zuluwar2006]

Julian

Another one Mauser manufacturer unit marked from my collection

Regards

D.