33rd Trench Mortar Battery

[Beselare]

I am having some difficulty tracing the movements of the 33rd TMB, RFA in August 1916.  The National Archives has one entry for the 33rd (3801) which ends 31.1.16.  The other five entries have no dates at all.  Can anyone point me in the right direction?

 

Many thanks

Bob

[kevinrowlinson]

Most give the dates, and the one which you should see is http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355878, which covers Feb.1916 to Nov. 1918. what you really need to know is which battery he was attached to; whether X, Y, or Z. Some of the diaries may also include the early HTMBs, normally V, although some did have a W as well.

If he served with 33 TMB before March 1916 then it may have been reorganised to a completely different  numbered TMB.

 

Kevin

 

edit; Just dawned on me you have picked up the earlier 33 TMB which I assume was reorganised to 2nd Canadian Division. You probably need http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353805, 33rd Divisional Trench Mortar Batteries, although that covers Oct. 1916 to Feb. 1919.

Edited 16 December , 2016 by kevinrowlinson

[Beselare]

Thanks Kevin.  As I am not that familiar with TMBs, I looked up the allocation of them.  Am I correct in thinking that the 33rd TMB would have been part of the 33rd Infantry Brigade which in turn was part of the 11th Division?  If so, then that puts them somewhere near Beaurains (Arras) in August 1916.

 

Bob

[kevinrowlinson]

Bob,

 

By Aug. 1916 I am assuming you are referring to 33 Division, in which case it should have a letter prefix for each battery as previously described. The trouble is that there were some of the original numbered TMBs that continued after March 1916 when the majority were reorganised. If 33 TMB was not reorganised then perhaps the WO 95/3801 is the only one. The Infantry Brigade used Light TMBs, the divisional ones medium, and for a time heavy TMBs. Actually you may never know without looking at both sets of diaries. If you are researching a particular gunner then giving his name and number may, or may not, help.

 

Kevin

[MBrockway]

In Seton Hutchinson's  The Thirty-Third Division in France & Flanders 1915-1919, there is an orbat for 1st July 1916 which has ...

 

19th Infantry Brigade: 19th Trench Mortar Battery

98th Infantry Brigade: 98th Trench Mortar Battery

100th Infantry Brigade: 100th Trench Mortar Battery

Divisional Troops:

  X 33 Trench Mortar Battery, Royal Artillery

  Y 33 Trench Mortar Battery, Royal Artillery

  Z 33 Trench Mortar Battery, Royal Artillery

 

The 1st November 1916 orbat in the same volume has the same organisation, but supplements it with the name of the commanding officer of each battery.  For each of the brigade TMB's, this officer is from one of the infantry battalions in that brigade, not RA/RFA.  Happy to transcribe if useful.

 

That suggests to me that Kevin is correct - if you're after a gunner from the RFA, then we need to be looking at the 33rd Division divisional TMB's of the RFA (WO 95/2413/7), not the 33rd TMB attached to 33rd Infantry Brigade in 11th Division.  The latter would have been manned by infantrymen.

 

The brigade TMB's were armed with the Stokes mortar, the divisional TMB's with medium and (possibly) heavy mortars.

 

The orbats in Seton Hutchinson for 1917 and early 1918 do not give details of the divisional TMB's and they do not re-appear again until the Kaiserschlacht period by which time the division had slimmed down to X/33 and Y/33 RFA TMB's at divisional level.  No mention in his orbats of a V/33 battery (i.e. heavy mortars from late 1916 onwards), however I find Seton Hutchinson's divisional history exasperatingly inconsistent.

 

Mark

 

 

Edited 16 December , 2016 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

To save me piecing together the likely movements of the divisional TMB's from Seton Hutchinson's patchy divisional history, which is likely to be nearly impossible anyway, here instead are the movements of 16/KRRC in 100 Brigade, 33rd Division from Westlake's excellent British Battalions on the Somme.  It will give you a good start point for where the division was in action until you can get the detail from the divisional TMB war diaries.

 

[Steven Broomfield]

8 hours ago, MBrockway said:

I find Seton Hutchinson's divisional history exasperatingly inconsistent.

 

Mark

 

 

Other words might include 'inaccurate' and 'self-serving'.

[Beselare]

Thanks everyone for your help.   I always found TMBs to be something of a mystery and this posting has confirmed my thoughts.  I thought that finding the area where a TMB was in action on a particular date, (16.8.16, Driver George Daniel Underwood, KIA) was going to be a simple job but now I realise I have some work to do.

 

Bob

[David Porter]

Just to confirm that it is 33rd Division you are looking for. L/14146 Dvr. Underwood enlisted at Camberwell on April 7, 1915 in 162nd Brigade RFA (possibly 'C' battery). 162nd Brigade RFA was assigned to 33rd Division once it was formed. The Registers of Soldiers' Effects on Ancestry have him with V/33 TMB at the time of his death.

[MBrockway]

Driver George Daniel UNDERWOOD, L/14146, Royal Field Artillery has an MIC Embarkation Date of 13 Dec 1915 and into France.

 

Regardless of his being in the RFA not an infantryman, that 99% rules out 33rd Trench Mortar Battery of 33rd Infantry Brigade in 11th Division.  11th Div left the UK in June 1915 but went to Gallipoli, not France & Flanders.  They were in Gallipoli until Christmas 1915 when they moved to Egypt manning the Suez Canal defences.  11th Div did not get to France & Flanders until July 1916.

 

33rd Division on the other hand went direct to France & Flanders with infantry landing between 12 to 21 November 1915.  The Divisional Artillery left Amesbury on 10-12 Dec 1915 and completed its concentration in the AIRE/THIENNES area on 16 Dec 1915.  Entirely consistent with Underwood's 13 Dec 1915 embarkation date.

 

33rd Divn's original artillery establishment was 156th, 162nd, 166th and 167th (Howitzer) Field Artillery Brigades.  All from New Army units raised in the Borough of Camberwell. Surprise, surprise, but Seton Hutchinson gives zero information on artillery, ditto for the evolution of the divisional Trench Mortar Batteries in the Spring of 1916.  Luckily there exists a separate History of the 33rd Divisional Artillery 1914-1918 by Major John Macartney-Filgate, RFA (1921) available here online, which partially fills Seton Hutchinson's vacuum, but gives little mention of the trench mortar batteries, beyond confirming that the V/33 Heavy TMB did exist.

 

It's probable Driver Underwood was originally attached to one of the Camberwell artillery units rather than the trench mortars, or he could possibly have been part of the 33rd Divisional Ammunition Column, also raised in Camberwell.  There is certainly no infantry experience listed on his MIC.

 

His British War & Victory Medals roll entry on RFA/127^B, page 5281, should give you more info on his units, though being unfamiliar with RA records, I'm uncertain how much detail you'll get.

 

I would focus on the war diaries of the 33rd divisional TMBs (linked earlier) and the various 33rd Divisional staff units (if you're lucky, you may find barrage maps or defensive plans that show TMB locations) to find his likely location on and leading up to his death on 16 August 1916.

 

Mark

34 minutes ago, David Porter said:

Just to confirm that it is 33rd Division you are looking for. L/14146 Dvr. Underwood enlisted at Camberwell on April 7, 1915 in 162nd Brigade RFA (possibly 'C' battery). 162nd Brigade RFA was assigned to 33rd Division once it was formed. The Registers of Soldiers' Effects on Ancestry have him with V/33 TMB at the time of his death.

 

Ha!  Our posts crossed!

Edited 17 December , 2016 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

10 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Other words might include 'inaccurate' and 'self-serving'.

Quite!

 

My original post had a paragraph of diatribe about this book, but I cut it out before saving the final version!

 

It might perhaps be better titled "How my Machine Gunners won the War".

[David Porter]

Another Casualty from V/33 Heavy TMB in August 1916 was L/20561 Dvr. Thomas Loveday Fairbrass. CWGC has him as F. L. Fairbrass and he died of wounds at Rouen on August 28, 1916. So most probably wounded in the same incident that killed Dvr. Underwood. The Registers of Soldiers' Effects for George actually says - on or since August 16, 1916 death presumed.

[Beselare]

Thanks once again to everyone.  From Mark's response I can see now why I had so much difficulty.  It's always comforting to know that you can rely on Forum members when you get nowhere with your own research.

 

Bob

[MBrockway]

In the Somme actions of Jul-Sep 1916, after 33rd Division went out of the line, the 33rd Division artillery remained in the line detached from 33rd Division and supporting other divisions who had taken over the sector.

 

It was much harder to physically swap artillery batteries than infantry battalions and even attempting it tended to attract enemy counter-battery fire.  Also with the lines remaining relatively static, the battery registrations would need to be redone for what were basically the same target points.

 

It made good sense therefore to leave artillery covering sectors they knew intimately.

 

I doubt if the same would be true for divisional trench mortar batteries though?

 

As close support weapons, even the heavy mortars were probably much closer up to the infantry.  I suspect V/33 would be more likely to have stayed with the rest of 33rd Division when the division moved to rest.

 

Let us know how you get on with the 33rd Division war diaries.  I'm interested as my grandfather was transferred from 20th (Light) Division (12/KRRC, 60 Bde) into 33rd Division (16/KRRC, 100 Bde) some time after recovering from wounds.  Don't know when exactly, but we do know he was definitely at the Somme, just not which battalion.

 

Mark

 

[Guest Marcus Barraclough]

Hi Bob, I see you are interested in 100th Brigade TMB, 33 Division. My grandfather Walter Barraclough served in this unit in France and Belgium from its formation until the end of the war. I would love to know what you've unearthed about this TMB since I have found information difficult to come by. I have a good deal of info on my grandad if you would care to see it. Best regards, Marcus.

[Beselare]

12 hours ago, Marcus Barraclough said:

Hi Bob, I see you are interested in 100th Brigade TMB, 33 Division. My grandfather Walter Barraclough served in this unit in France and Belgium from its formation until the end of the war. I would love to know what you've unearthed about this TMB since I have found information difficult to come by. I have a good deal of info on my grandad if you would care to see it. Best regards, Marcus.

Hello Marcus - still working on it.  I will contact you when I have what I believe will be accurate information.  Thank you for the offer of information about your grandfather - I might well be sending you a message about him.

 

Bob

[George Lee Temple]

On 17/12/2016 at 14:28, Beselare said:

Thanks everyone for your help.   I always found TMBs to be something of a mystery and this posting has confirmed my thoughts.  I thought that finding the area where a TMB was in action on a particular date, (16.8.16, Driver George Daniel Underwood, KIA) was going to be a simple job but now I realise I have some work to do.

 

Bob

Did you make any progress with this ? I ask because I am trying to pin down the service of L14145 Driver Arthur William Forder (i.e. with the service number before Underwood's) who was discharged from 2c Reserve Brigade RFA (Catterick Hospital) on 10.7.1917.

[charlie962]

58 minutes ago, George Lee Temple said:

L14145 Driver Arthur William Forder

you mean 14148 ?

[George Lee Temple]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

you mean 14148 ?

It appears as both on the Medal Roll, but I assume that 14145 is a typo and it should be L14148.