Llandudno untraceable - help needed to discover final six names.

[typandy]

Thanks to those who answered my first use of this forum regarding Private William Henry Hughes of the King’s (Liverpool Regiment). The potted biography is here: http://llandudno-parish.org.uk/wordpress/extra/the-great-war/h/hughes-william-henry

For over two years I have been researching the 200+ named on the Llandudno memorials – the Roll of Honour, The War Memorial on the prom, and the tablets in Holy Trinity Church.

There are only six warriors of whom I have been unable to find any material details at all:

• William Davies, Private, RGA. Probably the soldier known as Will (Denbigh) Davies on the War Memorial
• GJ Downes, Private, Royal Welsh Fusiliers. His name was George;
• John Jones Griffiths, Private, Royal Welsh Fusiliers;
• William Thomas Jones, Private, Royal Welsh Fusiliers;
• Robert Griffith Roberts, Sapper, RE;
• John Thomas, Seaman, RN. Only on the Roll of Honour – curious because this was the first memorial to appear. The lists are generally identical.

There is a seventh warrior of whom I know little. Edward John Roberts. I discovered a person of this name dying of valvular disease of the heart in 1922. He is only named on the tablets in Holy Trinity Church as it was the last of the memorials to be unveiled in 1924. Interestingly, three other Llandudno ex-soldiers died of similar cause 1919-1920 and all had been gassed. I know nothing of Edward Robert's military record. Since he is not on the Roll of Honour, his rank and unit are unknown.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

Andy
 

[KevinBattle]

Presumably this chap isn't the Robert Griffiths Roberts you're looking for?

ROBERTS, G. Rank: Sapper. Service No: 146855. Date of Death: 06/09/1917.
Regiment/Service: Royal Engineers 12th Field Coy. 
Grave Reference: I. V. 22. Cemetery: PHILOSOPHE BRITISH CEMETERY, MAZINGARBE.
Additional Information: Husband of Margaret E. Roberts, of "West Lynne," 1, Charlton St. Llandudno.

 

This seems to be the only G J Downes in the CWGC, but the Llandudno connection is too well hidden for me to find!

DOWNES, GEORGE JAMES. Rank: Private. Service No: 3/4208. Date of Death: 04/08/1915. Age: 18.
Regiment/Service: Hampshire Regiment 2nd Bn. 
Panel Reference: Panel 126-135 or 223-226 228-229 & 328. Memorial: HELLES MEMORIAL.
Additional Information: Son of Herbert and Emma Downes, of 125, High Rd., Leyton, London.

(It'd be too easy!)

Edited 5 December , 2016 by KevinBattle

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I had a look at the J Downes in CWGC, but again, no evidence of a Welsh connection, let alone Llandudno.

There are 2 John Downes in RWF, both KIA.

One from Manchester.

The other not specified, but lists names of parents.

1911 Census might place them in Shropshire.

Tried variants also -Down, Downs, Downdes  (Dow*) in MICs. Very few , and no obvious Llandudno connection

[typandy]

2 hours ago, KevinBattle said:

 

Presumably this chap isn't the Robert Griffiths Roberts you're looking for?

ROBERTS, G. Rank: Sapper. Service No: 146855. Date of Death: 06/09/1917.
Regiment/Service: Royal Engineers 12th Field Coy. 
Grave Reference: I. V. 22. Cemetery: PHILOSOPHE BRITISH CEMETERY, MAZINGARBE.
Additional Information: Husband of Margaret E. Roberts, of "West Lynne," 1, Charlton St. Llandudno.

 

No. I have this one here: http://llandudno-parish.org.uk/wordpress/extra/the-great-war/r/roberts-george

 

Thanks for looking.And as for Downes, it isn't exactly common round here.

 

A

[PaulC78]

Found these two men in the Navy records, both born in Llandudno:

 

John Thomas J65293

John Clyde Thomas J55322

 

Neither appear to be casualties though.

[Hywyn]

There being only one John Griffith/John 'X' Griffiths on the main memorial he is possibly 

 

19807 John Griffiths RWF

 

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/440150/GRIFFITHS, J

 

whose NoK details are Mrs E Griffiths, 30 Clifton Road

(see Headstone docs)

 

I haven't done any census work to fit a middle name in for him.

 

 

[typandy]

12 hours ago, Hywyn said:

 

There being only one John Griffith/John 'X' Griffiths on the main memorial he is possibly 

 

19807 John Griffiths RWF

 

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/440150/GRIFFITHS, J

 

whose NoK details are Mrs E Griffiths, 30 Clifton Road

 

Brilliant. John J Griffiths married Emily Roberts, Conway, first quarter 1917. He enlisted in Tonypandy – probably a South Walian who fancied training in North Wales. There are several instances of similar nuptuals – the birth records are often revealing.

Thank you for your observation. One down, 6 to go.

Andy

[Hywyn]

And his effects went to his  widow Emily so that ties that up nicely.. The record also indicates a child.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60506/42511_6129999_0097-00066?pid=573478&backurl=//search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DMKC55%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DUKArmyRegistersEffects%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26gsfn%3Djohn%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln%3Dgriffiths%26gsln_x%3D1%26_F8007A65%3D19087%26_F8007A65_x%3D1%26MSAV%3D2%26uidh%3Da63%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D0%26h%3D573478%26recoff%3D3%204%2067%2068%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=MKC55&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

 

Hywyn

 

PS

I have a typo above.  19807 should be 19087

[clive_hughes]

Interesting to see this project.  A few of of the Llandudno men are also covered by my own Anglesey research, eg. Robert Victor Davies 15th RWF who has an entry & picture in the Amlwch memorial volume.

 

You list the known memorials for these men, but have you don't seem to mention the Llandudno (& district) panels on the North Wales Heroes Memorial Arch, Bangor (opened 1924)?  Sometimes the Memorial Arch panel names and other memorials don't match exactly, with new names appearing or not being included (something I'm sure you've come across before when comparing such lists!).  

 

All the best with your research

Clive

[typandy]

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 23:19, clive_hughes said:

You list the known memorials for these men, but have you don't seem to mention the Llandudno (& district) panels on the North Wales Heroes Memorial Arch, Bangor (opened 1924)?  Sometimes the Memorial Arch panel names and other memorials don't match exactly, with new names appearing or not being included (something I'm sure you've come across before when comparing such lists!).

I know of the arch but have not been able to visit it. There are some photographs on-line but when I last checked, they were not complete. I shall have to sort this out. Thank you for the reminder. I guess this is R V on the Amlwch War Memorial. Andy.

 

[clive_hughes]

Andy,

yes, that's him.  The Amlwch volume states he was the son of Mrs Davies, Mona Cafe, Amlwch; that he enlisted aged 20, and joined the 15th London Welsh RWF, being killed on 31 July 1917.  The photo is of him in Welsh Horse uniform.  

 

As to the Bangor Arch site, partly here http://www.bangorcivicsociety.org.uk/pages/arch/DSCF4351.htm , I think you're right - there must be a missing section at the bottom of the main panel.  I'm told it's open on selected days, but maybe the Civic Society could be contacted for further help?  

 

Clive

[Guest]

m

On 11/12/2016 at 19:46, clive_hughes said:

Andy,

yes, that's him.  The Amlwch volume states he was the son of Mrs Davies, Mona Cafe, Amlwch; that he enlisted aged 20, and joined the 15th London Welsh RWF, being killed on 31 July 1917.  The photo is of him in Welsh Horse uniform.  

 

As to the Bangor Arch site, partly here http://www.bangorcivicsociety.org.uk/pages/arch/DSCF4351.htm , I think you're right - there must be a missing section at the bottom of the main panel.  I'm told it's open on selected days, but maybe the Civic Society could be contacted for further help?  

 

Clive

Hello Andy and Clive

How lovely to find a mention of my great uncle R.Victor Davies in your discussions. I'm already aware of the considerable work which Andy has done to remember the men of Llandudno. Clive - could you tell me where I can find the Amlwch memorial volume please. It would be nice to see his photo although it may be the same as the one I have already which was taken in Dublin in 1916

[clive_hughes]

Caroline,

Thanks for showing us the nice original image - I think you're right, it's the same one used for the Amlwch and district volume compiled by David Jones, Talar Gwroldeb. Nodion Côf Cewri Fy Ardal.  (Amlwch 1920).  He may have added the bits of memorial verse shown, but there were also contributions by Thomas Williams "Rhydfab" of Cemaes.   I have scanned the relevant page for you:

 

 

Some of the Third-Line Welsh Yeomanries became involved on the fringes of the Easter Rising in Dublin April 1916.  As Typandy shows, he is named on the Amlwch town memorial and the Amlwch panel of the North Wales Arch in Bangor.  He may be on other Llandudno memorials; and also Anglesey ones (eg, chapels, schools) of which I'm not at present aware.

 

Clive

[Ron da Valli]

I have found in a number of cases where men are "untraceable" it is a case of family members moving to a particular town, during or after the war, and not wanting their relative to be forgotten, submitted their name for inclusion. I struggled with a few on Rhyl memorial and newspaper reports eventually revealed the connection. Maybe the 1921 census could answer many researchers problems like these.

[Guest]

On 03/03/2018 at 08:31, clive_hughes said:

Caroline,

Thanks for showing us the nice original image - I think you're right, it's the same one used for the Amlwch and district volume compiled by David Jones, Talar Gwroldeb. Nodion Côf Cewri Fy Ardal.  (Amlwch 1920).  He may have added the bits of memorial verse shown, but there were also contributions by Thomas Williams "Rhydfab" of Cemaes.   I have scanned the relevant page for you:

 

 

Some of the Third-Line Welsh Yeomanries became involved on the fringes of the Easter Rising in Dublin April 1916.  As Typandy shows, he is named on the Amlwch town memorial and the Amlwch panel of the North Wales Arch in Bangor.  He may be on other Llandudno memorials; and also Anglesey ones (eg, chapels, schools) of which I'm not at present aware.

 

Clive

Thanks very much indeed Clive. Diolch yn fawr. As well as being remembered on memorials in North Wales his name is, of course, on the Menin Gate memorial. I visited a couple of years ago now and took him  a white rose. http://www.carolinemdavies.co.uk/2016/04/05/the-menin-gate-memorial-and-robert-victor-davies/

 

[clive_hughes]

Caroline,

Thank you for the link to your poem about Robert Victor, and your website.  It's always interesting for me to learn even the small facts about the lives of those who served and died.   

 

Clive

[typandy]

It has been some time since I reported on this.

There are 212 names on the Llandudno War Memorial. I discovered up to 16 men connected with the town  not on the main War Memorial. Of these, I would say that 10 were certainties, two were probably not eligible (one having died accidentally after discharge and probably given Wargrave status in error, the other having died in 1916 and no family Association with the town until 1919). The other 4 are in the middle. The original War Memorial Committee was generous and I guess these warriors would have been commemorated had application been made. 15 of the 16 are registered in National Debt of Honour. The one who is not succumbed to gas in 1922 – he is named in Holy Trinity Church.

 

Some months ago I suggested to the Town Council that this year will be a good opportunity to somehow acknowledge the additional names. I give it all 16 because, as the successor to the original committee, it is not my decision.
 

The original response was not good. All were rejected because (a) not killed in action during the war, (b) on another local War Memorial (mainly Holy Trinity Church), or (c) a tenuous link to the town. On appeal, two were accepted and the plan is to have an additional plaque placed in the Memorial Garden next to the War Memorial with these two names and some generic blurb commemorating all Llandudno men and women who died in all wars.

 

My response was polite but not happy. Even by its own restrictive criteria, there remained another two men, Llandudno-born who had been killed in action – one in Italy in 1916 and the other in 1918 in the Llandovery Castle atrocity. I asked for some transparency requiring that details be given as to why these two men were not chosen. I also pointed out that it would be conceived as somewhat perverse is a man can be remembered by the nation but not by his home town. I further pointed out that there are 20 names on the existing War Memorial of men who died after the Armistice. Only about 60 percent of those named on the War Memorial were killed in action. By changing the rules, the present Town Council is not complying with the wishes of the original War Memorial Committee which sought to commemorate men equally. The previous sentence is a recommendation of the War Memorials Trust. Another recommendation is that this should be put out of public consultation. It was today after I put a whinge into a local newspaper. Go to

 

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/16891731.appeal-to-add-omitted-first-world-war-names-to-llandudno-war-memorial/

 

I can't understand the attitude. The Town is very good with Veteran's affairs, the Royal British Legion, Remembrance Day and Remembrance Sunday et cetera.

 

I detect that the Town Council has had to give in a little by, at this very late stage, requesting details from family members and the like. There are one or two but some of these warriors were not put on the Memorial in the first place because they were the last of there line.

 

Please feel free to comment. Let me know if you think I'm going nuts – sometimes I feel I am. Comment on the article in the paper's website. If you feel really strongly, have a whinge at the town Council – contact details are available on the above link.
 

Thanking you for letting me get this off my chest

Andy

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hywyn]

Andy

Did you resolve the "Will Denbigh Davies" one?

If not I have a good candidate for him i.e William Davies 44946 Northumberland Fusiliers

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/157183/davies,-william/

 

who is the brother of Daniel Davies 300050 RGA

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2746429/davies,-daniel/

 

Both are on a WFA Pension Ledger where the claimant is their mother Joanne of the Birkenhead address.

 

1911 census has them at 3 Brynygwynt, Llandudno where the father William is shown as from Denbigh (or could be Denbighshire) and the mother from Henllan

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2353/rg14_34536_0435_06?pid=2114965&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DkEd42%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D2353%26gsfn%3Ddaniel%26gsln%3Ddavies%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln_x%3D1%26cp%3D11%26msmng%3Djoan*%26msmng_x%3D1%26msmns_x%3D1%26qh%3DlUCVuj7B2pp9ZEFAQrwCeg%3D%3D%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26uidh%3Da63%26redir%3Dfalse%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D35%26fh%3D0%26h%3D2114965%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=kEd42&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

 

I see on the History Points website for Llandudno Memorial that Daniel is 'claimed' but Will (Denbigh) Davies is not (Is that your info on that site?)

http://historypoints.org/index.php?page=llandudno-war-memorial-fww

 

Some more digging around/thought to the available info might prove or disprove my assertion?

 

Hywyn

 

Edited 14 September , 2019 by Hywyn

[Hywyn]

WFA Ledgers have Edward John Roberts 310446 RGA of 4 Morfa Road, West Shore as died 31. 7 1922 of VDH 

[Guest]

On 06/12/2016 at 10:57, typandy said:

Brilliant. John J Griffiths married Emily Roberts, Conway, first quarter 1917. He enlisted in Tonypandy – probably a South Walian who fancied training in North Wales. There are several instances of similar nuptuals – the birth records are often revealing.

Thank you for your observation. One down, 6 to go.

Andy

Hi there,  i recently came across your work on the Llandudno roll of honour. Great work by the way.
I have discovered a link to “John James Griffiths” and so hoped you could share your research resources with me please.
John James Griffiths had a younger brother Emrys Griffiths. Emrys joined the 7th Btn Somerset Light Infantry aged 16 and was killed a year later. My great-grandfather Alfred Victor Snook was Emrys’ commanding officer and wrote a condelence letter to the Griffiths family.
As well as researching this Griffiths family, I am hoping to locate any living descendants in remembrance of the noble sacrifice made by John James and Emrys Griffiths. 

Edited 10 April , 2020 by Guest
.

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, paulanthony1976 said:

Hi there,  i recently came across your work on the Llandudno roll of honour. Great work by the way.
I have discovered a link to “John James Griffiths” and so hoped you could share your research resources with me please.
John James Griffiths had a younger brother Emrys Griffiths. Emrys joined the 7th Btn Somerset Light Infantry aged 16 and was killed a year later. My great-grandfather Alfred Victor Snook was Emrys’ commanding officer and wrote a condelence letter to the Griffiths family.
As well as researching this Griffiths family, I am hoping to locate any living descendants in remembrance of the noble sacrifice made by John James and Emrys Griffiths.

 

Brendan MOOREHOUSE, 2003, ‘Forged by Fire: The Battle Tactics and Soldiers of a WW1 Battalion: The 7th Somerset Light Infantry’ published by Spellbound)

See page 29