Post 1921 possible war death

[axial1680]

I was wondering if there has been anyone given a war grave if they died after the cut off date of 1921. My Grandfather James Connell RMF 3014 and ASC T445124 died of TB while serving in the Irish Free State army in 1923. I have found from his service record he was transferred to the ASC in November 1918 as he was a malaria case and couldn't carry a pack due to bad acne. I have read in several places that quinine which was used to treat malaria at the time can reduce the effectiveness of TB treatments. Has anyone else heard this and is it worth writing to the CWGC? My biggest problem is proving to Dublin City Council where his grave is as they don't have a plan from that date and wont take our word for it. There is no current headstone and I am wanting to put one up.

Thanks,

Paul

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Hi, In short, I've never heard of quinine being prescribed for TB. That's not to say that nobody ever tried. Interestingly the modern(ish) day antibiotic Doxycycline does have an anti malarial as well as an antituberculous spectrum, and can also be used in acne!!!

Edited 13 November , 2016 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[axial1680]

That is interesting, but it was that quinine stopped or reduced TB medication working is what I read. This acne seems to have been a big problem too.

[John_Hartley]

1 hour ago, axial1680 said:

I was wondering if there has been anyone given a war grave if they died after the cut off date of 1921.

The cut off date is the cut off date.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

10 hours ago, axial1680 said:

That is interesting, but it was that quinine stopped or reduced TB medication working is what I read. This acne seems to have been a big problem too.

 

The first antibacterial drugs of any sort were Sulphonamides, introduced in the late 1930s . These along with Penicillin (introduced in clinical use in 1942) had no antituberculous action. Streptomycin (first successful treatment 1946) was later found to be the first effective treatment for tuberculosis.

 

As far as I'm aware, quinine has no anti TB effect. I don't think that in the bad old pre antibiotic era it was ever seriously considered to have any anti TB effect, or that it was prescribed on any evidence base by any authoritative bodies as having any anti TB effect.

If anyone felt it was decreasing the potency of clinically proven antituberculous therapy, it would have to be after 1946.

 

On the balance of probability, that element of the history is groundless.

 

With regards to acne, especially of the back, I can't speak for the Great War period, but the British Army were rejecting recruits until adequately treated at least as late as the 1990s.

Tetracyclines, widely used for treatment have a nasty habit of reacting with sunshine, which has caused many problems in conflicts in recent decades.

Edited 14 November , 2016 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I've done a quick online check only android and can't immediately see any recognised interaction between the two drugs, so even after 1946, the argument doesn't hold water.

 

As David says, the cut off is the cutoff which is a great shame for probably tens (if not hundreds of thousands) of men who died after surviving the horror.

Edited 14 November , 2016 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[John_Hartley]

36 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

As David says,

I'm John, not David.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

17 minutes ago, John_Hartley said:

I'm John, not David.

 

Sorry Dave.

[CGM]

I suspect the original question arose as he was being treated for malaria with quinine - and whatever treatment he was given for TB failed and he died.

This caused the suspicion that the quinine, as a side effect, reduced the effectiveness of his TB treatments.

 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

15 hours ago, axial1680 said:

I have read in several places that quinine which was used to treat malaria at the time can reduce the effectiveness of TB treatments. 

 

Paul, 

Could you provide a source for those articles, we can look into it in more detail, but in reality, as there were no effective treatments by even 1925 (sanatoria, -BCG was used in France first in 1921 for prevention,not treatment, collapsing your lung, was 1930s onward),  it would be hard to prove that anything could possibly reduce a treatment benefit which is already almost certainly zero.

 

That's not to say of course that someone, somewhere at some time told one of your relatives the exact opposite.

[axial1680]

4 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 

Paul, 

Could you provide a source for those articles, we can look into it in more detail, but in reality, as there were no effective treatments by even 1925 (sanatoria, -BCG was used in France first in 1921 for prevention,not treatment, collapsing your lung, was 1930s onward),  it would be hard to prove that anything could possibly reduce a treatment benefit which is already almost certainly zero.

 

That's not to say of course that someone, somewhere at some time told one of your relatives the exact opposite.

Thank you both very much for that, better to ask people that know what they are talking about rather than getting it wrong. Heres what I saw on the internet about it. https://malariajournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2875-10-144

[axial1680]

Sorry I meant three of you, I cant find the other one right now, but will post it when I find it,  it was more saying about TB treatments from the 1920s I think, there was a lot around in Ireland at that time, also grandfathers father died from it in 1905 and his daughter my auntie died as a child in 1925 of meningitis TB 5 days it says on the death cert.

Thanks again,

Paul

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Thanks Paul,

 On first reading (I may get to see more of it tomorrow) I've had a quick glance at that paper and really, it doesn't seem very relevant to the question you initially ask for several reasons:

1) It is a fairly modern study, so the only treatments mentioned for TB are Tetracyclines and Rifampicin, both drugs dating from the 1950s or 60s. So the quinine interaction with quinine could never have happened in the 1920s.

2) It is a complicated study involving a lot of immunosuppressed peoples of Sub Saharah Africa rather than western European populations- not comparing like with like.

3) The conclusion seems to be that antituberculous drugs affect the metabolism of quinine, (meaning you need a higher dose to compensate) rather than the malarial drug affecting the antituberculous drug.

 

The older paper you mention sounds interesting, I look forward to seeing its findings.