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laughton

Unknown Lieutenant Northamptonshire Regiment: Corrected Title

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laughton

14 November 2016: HOLD THE PHONE - I think this is incorrect as not knowing the British system of Regiments all that well, I have confused the "Hampshire Regiment" with the "Northamptonshire Regiment" and thus these two Lieutenants noted below are not the candidates.

 

An Unknown Lieutenant of the Northants (Northhampshire Regiment I presume? Remember I am Canadian!).

 

Quote

 

THIS PART IS ALL INCORRECT - SO IS THE TITLE (now changed to read "Unknown Lieutenant Northamptonshire Regiment: Corrected Title")

 

There are only two (2) on the Thiepval Memorial so as a "first guess" I would say it is one of Nixon or Potter. Maybe someone knows more about the locations of the 3rd and 8th. Who was near 57c.S.24.C the Quarry near Guillemont?

 

NIXON    WILLIAM GERALD         
01-07-16    Lieutenant    
Hampshire Regiment    
3rd Bn.

             

POTTER    CHARLES GORDON     
15-09-16    Lieutenant    
Hampshire Regiment    
8th Bn.

 

When I entered this yesterday in the example, not thinking there may be a case of an UNKNOWN here, I failed to notice that it said POTTER was attached to the London Regiment (Post Office Rifles) (CWGC Link). I clued into that after I looked up the 8th Battalion Hampshire Regiment on the “Long, Log Trail” and found that it could not be them. I do not know if the 8th referred to 1/8th or 2/8th, as I do not have the hang of that nomenclature of the British Army. I just know they were Territorials.

 

That takes me to this on the LLT page:

 

1/8th (City of London) Battalion (Post Office Rifles)
August 1914 : at 130 Bunhill Row. Record same as 1/6th Bn.
2 February 1918 : transferred to 174th Brigade in 58th (2/1st London) Division, absorbed the disbanded 2/8th Bn and renamed 8th Bn.

 

Unfortunately that tells me nothing about where they were in September 1916.

 

On the Lives of the First World War site it gives his prior service number:

 

Lieutenant Charles Gordon Potter (that links to his page – but no further details)

1893 - 15/09/1916

British Army Hampshire Regiment, Service #2369

 

 

The IWM site tells us: the Somme at High Wood (September 1916) 

 

The area where they say the unit was in September 1916 is certainly close. Where did they move to by the 15th of September?

In the topic from where this was extracted to this new topic, Tim had said (see post) to eliminate Lt. Nixon as a possible candidate, but I don’t know the source of that information:

 

2/Lt Potter would be the missing man because 30th Division were nearest to Guillemont on 1st July and didn't include any Hants Battalions. Equally the advance went nowhere near Guillemont until much later in the month and few 30th Div men were captured on 1st. It would be good to hear the views of a Hampshire Regiment expert to explain the prospect of Charles Potter being there on 15th Sept

 

So there are two questions:

  1. What is the definitive proof that eliminates Lt. Nixon?
  2. Is there a War Diary that places Lt. Potter nearer the Quarry on 15 September 1916?

 

 

THESE ARE THE ONLY PARTS THAT ARE CORRECT:

 

The COG-BR for Bernfay Wood 57C.S.28.b.7.9 tells us that there was an “UNKNOWN LIEUTENANT NORTHANTS” found at 57C.S.24.c. He had a cross on his grave and was exhumed and concentrated to Row M Grave 86.

 

http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc1971780.JPG


 

dzadx8m0w8ddahy6g.jpg

 

Edited by laughton
northamptonshire is what it should say 22 Jan 2018

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MelPack

Hello Richard

I think that you need to be wary of accepting the rank designation of Lieutenant at face value - Fifty Shades of Kipling?

 

The 7th Northants participated in the attack on Guillemont on 18 August 1916 from the direction of the Quarry and Trones Wood - precisely the location where the remains were recovered.

 

The Battalion suffered 372 casualties including five 2nd Lieutenants commemorated on the Thiepval memorial.

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MelPack
MelPack

There is a first class thread on the attack here:

 

 

 

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laughton

I agree, that is what brought me back to this topic again - the question of the Lieutenant or 2nd Lieutenant and then I saw my error on the Regiments. I was making a revised list to check that when I saw you had posted. These are just the LTs.

 

POZIERES MEMORIAL

 

LAW, EDGAR FELIX 05-04-18    
6th Bn. Northamptonshire Regiment                        

RATHBONE, GEORGE POWELL 21-03-18    
7th Bn. Northamptonshire Regiment

 

THIEPVAL MEMORIAL        
                
BADCOCK, EDMUND DOWNES 22-07-16    
1st Bn. Northamptonshire Regiment                

BARTHORP. MICHAEL ARTHUR RAYMOND 20-07-16
1st Bn. Northamptonshire Regiment                

BIRD, WALTER CYRIL 04-03-17
8th Bn. attd. 2nd Bn.     Northamptonshire Regiment                

** NOTT, GEORGE VINCENT 18-08-16    
7th Bn. Northamptonshire Regiment                 

SELBY, MILLIN JOHN 07-07-16
2nd Bn. Northamptonshire Regiment            

SHANKSTER, GEORGE 09-10-16    
6th Bn. Northamptonshire Regiment            

WILCOX, FREDERICK ALEXANDER C. 14-07-16    
6th Bn. Northamptonshire Regiment

Edited by laughton

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MelPack

Richard

 

Nott is by far the strongest candidate but subject to the proviso of certainty about the GRU correctly identifying the rank. B)

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Stebie9173

I'm suffering from a cold so my head is in Mississippi at the moment. I wouldn't want to comment to much while I feel so fuzzy - just a couple of points.

 

I agree that Nott seems the most likely from the position. If is exactly the spot they were attacking over. Shankster was atcyually 7th Battalion when killed - he had been with the 6th Battalion but was wounded a couple of months earlier. Edgar Law is a local man to me so I have done a little research - he was certainly at Hangard Wood when killed so he would be a long way down the list. The two 1st Battalion officers would have been killed near Pozieres, Bird at Bouchavesnes, and Selby at Contalmasion.

 

Wilcox is the 2nd most likely - being one of the missing at Trones Wood. One of the other ranks I have researched was buried by the Germans east of the wood, having presumably been taken POW and taken back with the Germans when the withdrew from the wood. More likely that his remains are within the wood somewhere, though.

 

 

Right I'd better have a short rest before I start typing rubbish.

 

 

Steve.

Edited by Stebie9173

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MelPack

The Battalion War Diary (mercifully in typescript) has a very detailed Appendix on the attack including Company reports and trench maps.

 

There is one fly in the ointment Lt George Nott is recorded as a 2nd Lt - so it would definitely be worth checking the LG for the substantive rank.

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Stebie9173

The Second-Lieutenant / Lieutenant promotion is about as borderline as you can get - Gazetted on the day of his death! WHo knows whether he had put up Lieutenant rank!

 

War Office,
18th August 1916.
REGULAR FORCES

 

The undermentioned temp. 2nd Lts. to be temp. Lts. :

 

North'n R.

 

Temp. 2nd Lt. G. V. Nott to be temp. Lt. 2 July 1916.

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29711/page/8160

 

 

As discussed at length relating to a certain Irish Guards officer, the relevant date is the Gazette date and not the back-dated date.

 

 

Steve.

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MelPack

Steve

 

I had just found that LG entry -and my response was .......... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh :o

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laughton

I will defer to the experts as to whether that means he would have been "visually" apparent as a Lieutenant.

 

If not, I can just make up some story, support it with fabricated information and have it published. Is that not what you do with 2nd Lieutenants? :ph34r:

 

Perhaps this is why the Canadians disposed of the 2nd Lieutenant rank? But then why did they bring in back in WWII? Both my mother and father were 2nd Lieutenants in the RCNVR. My father got really piss...d when my mother was made a Lieutenant (she was the Paymaster in Halifax) and he stayed a 2nd. She was in a "Stone Frigate" and he was on a Corvette in the North Atlantic - don't think he ever let that one go.

 

Than again, another option would to go forward this case and then when the CWGC rejects it we can say "WHY?" you already approved Kipling on less substantive facts?

Edited by laughton
option added

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Stebie9173

If we accept that Nott can be considered as a candidate, even without a promotion - i.e. as a Second Lieutenant then all 5 of the "Second Lieutenants" (including Nott) noted in post #3 are in the frame - probably the conundrum that the original assessors had.

 

None of the other four had a promotion before their deaths (or indeed after) as far as I can see.

 

 

Steve.

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MelPack

Is there a COG-BR for Bernafay? it would be interesting to run through to establish whether there is any consistency/inconsistency in recording the rank of any other junior officer recovered. 

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laughton

Yes, already posted in "CEFSG Sharing Resources" - on phone or would look up link.

 

LATER:

 

 

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MelPack

Thanks Richard.

 

I will have a look in more detail but my initial impression is that where a rank could be identified for an officer then it was recorded meticulously by the same GRU.

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