Tommy's Teeth

[HF1972]

On 12/16/2016 at 23:02, clive_hughes said:

HF1972,

May not be relevant/of interest, but I have noted that in WW1 Canadian army soldiers files a standard dental chart is sometimes included, presumably so that a medic can record bad/missing teeth (?and fillings or other intervention).  

 

The files are largely available online (they are in the process of being digitised), via here http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/Pages/introduction.aspx#g  

 

If it were a topic you wanted to follow up in detail, perhaps you could consult the CEF Study group via their website http://cefresearch.ca/phpBB3/  - the members would likely have better knowledge of cases than I would!  

 

Clive

Hi Clive

Thank you for the links.

I am looking at the BEF, for now, but it is interesting to note the way that the Canadians regarded the teeth and the fact that the state of the teeth was recorded. Contrast this to the recruitment and enlistment process of British soldiers, which was pretty haphazard, to say the least.

Best wishes.

 

On 12/17/2016 at 20:49, RaySearching said:

The illustrated London News 1916

 

teeth.pdf

 

regards Ray

Thanks for this Ray, a good non-military source, which is useful.

[HF1972]

On 12/17/2016 at 21:48, Maureene said:

It perhaps has come from an annual publication called Army Medical Department Report 

See a similar page from the 1906 edition,  Page 12 

 

Alternative sources could include an annual publication called GARBA General Annual Report of the British Army, or

 

History of the Great War Based on Official Documents: Medical Services: Casualties and Medical Statistics of the Great War by Major T. J. Mitchell and Miss G. M. Smith. 1931 Hathi Trust Digital Library (click on coloured text)

 

Cheers

Maureen

Edit: For those who have access, the two annual reports may be available through 

• U.K. Parliamentary Papers, part of Proquest

 

5 hours ago, Maureene said:

 

Written by a New Zealand Sapper

 

…the habits of those Terrier shipmates of ours were enough to set you thinking…As for toothbrushes, well, they were all right for polishing buttons. The spectacle of a big, husky bushman cleaning his teeth night and morning was a thing they couldn’t understand at any price, much less appreciate. “If I did that”, observed one in my hearing, “I’d have toothache bad”; which seemed to be the general opinion.

 

Pages15-16 On the Anzac trail : being extracts from the diary of a New Zealand sapper by Anzac 1916 Archive.org

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

 

Hello Maureen

 

Many thanks for the useful links, I think the first link looks like a similar publication albeit for a different date, but I will click through the others you have kindly provided. The Mitchell and Smith, which is a really useful book.

Best wishes

Helen.

Edit to say that I have ProQuest access, so I think I will find what I am looking for there, so thanks for the pointer.

 

Edited 19 December , 2016 by HF1972
additional info added

[HF1972]

I found the page via UK Parliamentary Papers via Proquest yipee!! Thank you Maureen, your suggestion was great.

It's from the Report on the health of the army for the year 1913 Vol LV.

PDF attached. 

 

1917-020603_01-265.pdf

[petwes]

I don't know if it's of interest but further to the question of the cost of dentures raised by my earlier post I found the following by chance while looking at the Pension Record for Joseph William Heathcote RGA. Cost of partial upper and lower £3./..

 

Regards

Peter.

 

[Moonraker]

On September 7, 1917 the PoW working-camp at Bulford on Salisbury Plain, opened about two months before, was inspected. It held 191 civilian prisoners from Knockaloe Camp on the Isle of Man. The  men were employed on painting, plumbing, blacksmith work, carpentry and bricklaying. Unskilled workmen earned 7d an hour, carpenters 10½d, painters 7d to 7½d and bricklayers 10½d. Weekly earnings averaged £1:16:9, each man paid 2s 6d a day for his maintenance, unless wet weather prevented work. Most drew 15s a week to spend at the canteen, though the inspecting officer reported that he had been told that there was gambling in the camp. An inmate could buy a suit for 16s, and second-hand boots for 4s. There were complaints that the dentist visiting from Amesbury charged £4:10:0 for artificial teeth.

 

Moonraker

[Moonraker]

OK, not relative to Tommies but:

 

Archibald Baxter was a conscientious objector, who was sent from New Zealand to England as part of continuing efforts to force  him to wear uniform and serve in the army.  He described his experiences in We Will Not Cease  (Caxton Press, Christchurch 1965):

 

I developed a violent face ache. No doubt a decayed tooth was the original cause of it, but the cold played its part in intensifying it. The doctor examined my mouth and sent me to the dentist. He looked at my mouth.
    "You'd better write his name on the card," he said to one of the orderlies.
    "It seems a shame to let his name go in amongst the other men's," said the orderly.
    "That's so, but there has to be some record kept."
    To me he said: "There's a good deal to do. If we fix up your mouth for you, you'll promise to take on service in the army?"
    "What's that got to do with you?" I asked. "I never asked to be brought here."
    "No, but you said you had toothache."
    "You're trying to make a bargain with me over my teeth. I won't promise to do anything at all."
    "In that case we can do nothing for you," he said.
    I was irritated by the feeling that I had been made a fool of, and by the pain in my jaws, for which I had now no hope of relief, and was in no amiable mood.

 

Lieutenant Horrie Rex of the 24th battalion, 11th Reinforcement, Australian Imperial Force, wrote to his sister from Lark Hill on February 9, 1917: "Every morning your toothbrush is frozen hard and your towel is always frozen stiff. We have got to the stage now that if we didn't see snow it is quite unusual, we sort of expect it."

 

See here

 

For war diaries of Australian dental units.

 

Moonraker

 

[HF1972]

On 12/31/2016 at 17:44, petwes said:

I don't know if it's of interest but further to the question of the cost of dentures raised by my earlier post I found the following by chance while looking at the Pension Record for Joseph William Heathcote RGA. Cost of partial upper and lower £3./..

 

Regards

Peter.

 

Hello Peter

 

This is interesting from the view point that the army were paying for dental treatment in 1915, and dentures as there is some debate in my references as to whether thety were doing so for the lower ranks or not. This suggests they were if they were regulars.

I'm not au fait with all the military forms, but is this type of pension form used as a sort of data collection of medical history? I assume all the dates are annual medical inspections?

Best wishes

Helen.

[HF1972]

On 12/31/2016 at 17:54, Moonraker said:

On September 7, 1917 the PoW working-camp at Bulford on Salisbury Plain, opened about two months before, was inspected. It held 191 civilian prisoners from Knockaloe Camp on the Isle of Man. The  men were employed on painting, plumbing, blacksmith work, carpentry and bricklaying. Unskilled workmen earned 7d an hour, carpenters 10½d, painters 7d to 7½d and bricklayers 10½d. Weekly earnings averaged £1:16:9, each man paid 2s 6d a day for his maintenance, unless wet weather prevented work. Most drew 15s a week to spend at the canteen, though the inspecting officer reported that he had been told that there was gambling in the camp. An inmate could buy a suit for 16s, and second-hand boots for 4s. There were complaints that the dentist visiting from Amesbury charged £4:10:0 for artificial teeth.

 

Moonraker

Interesting, I have not looked at PoWs as such, but there were charities who helped them, not come across any help for teeth, but imagine they were in a terrible state.

Thanks Moonraker!

[HF1972]

On 12/31/2016 at 18:07, Moonraker said:

OK, not relative to Tommies but:

 

Archibald Baxter was a conscientious objector, who was sent from New Zealand to England as part of continuing efforts to force  him to wear uniform and serve in the army.  He described his experiences in We Will Not Cease  (Caxton Press, Christchurch 1965):

 

I developed a violent face ache. No doubt a decayed tooth was the original cause of it, but the cold played its part in intensifying it. The doctor examined my mouth and sent me to the dentist. He looked at my mouth.
    "You'd better write his name on the card," he said to one of the orderlies.
    "It seems a shame to let his name go in amongst the other men's," said the orderly.
    "That's so, but there has to be some record kept."
    To me he said: "There's a good deal to do. If we fix up your mouth for you, you'll promise to take on service in the army?"
    "What's that got to do with you?" I asked. "I never asked to be brought here."
    "No, but you said you had toothache."
    "You're trying to make a bargain with me over my teeth. I won't promise to do anything at all."
    "In that case we can do nothing for you," he said.
    I was irritated by the feeling that I had been made a fool of, and by the pain in my jaws, for which I had now no hope of relief, and was in no amiable mood.

 

Lieutenant Horrie Rex of the 24th battalion, 11th Reinforcement, Australian Imperial Force, wrote to his sister from Lark Hill on February 9, 1917: "Every morning your toothbrush is frozen hard and your towel is always frozen stiff. We have got to the stage now that if we didn't see snow it is quite unusual, we sort of expect it."

 

See here

 

For war diaries of Australian dental units.

 

Moonraker

 

It is interesting that the dentist was prepared to withold treatment unless he signed up. Heavens.

I will have a look at the Australian diaries, thanks for the link.

Best wishes

Helen.

[steve fuller]

If you're after visual info too, there is a lovely 1917 film at the IWM called The Hertfordshire Regiment. In it is a clip where two Tommies are clearly begin told to drink from their tin mugs for the camera and both have badly blackened teeth. One looks early to mid 20's at best, the other a little older. Quite telling of the generally accepted condition of teeth at the time, given that they were both on active service.

 

The film was IWM1099 unless it has been re-catalogued since I was there.

[petwes]

34 minutes ago, HF1972 said:

Hello Peter

 

This is interesting from the view point that the army were paying for dental treatment in 1915, and dentures as there is some debate in my references as to whether thety were doing so for the lower ranks or not. This suggests they were if they were regulars.

I'm not au fait with all the military forms, but is this type of pension form used as a sort of data collection of medical history? I assume all the dates are annual medical inspections?

Best wishes

Helen.

Helen

I'm no expert but as you say the sheet seems to be a summary of his medical history.  The entries don't appear to be annual check ups, more on an as required basis. My reading of the entry is that the dentures were chargeable to the individual otherwise I can't see the need for the cost to be recorded. 

Peter

[seaJane]

Admiralty Order: Dentures - supply. 2 March 1917.

[HF1972]

On 1/5/2017 at 14:12, seaJane said:

Admiralty Order: Dentures - supply. 2 March 1917.

Hello Sea Jane

This is interesting because I have written about the Admiralty taking over the cost of dentures, and this ties in with the dates that I have from another source.

Thank you for leaving it here for me.

Helen

On 1/5/2017 at 11:32, steve fuller said:

If you're after visual info too, there is a lovely 1917 film at the IWM called The Hertfordshire Regiment. In it is a clip where two Tommies are clearly begin told to drink from their tin mugs for the camera and both have badly blackened teeth. One looks early to mid 20's at best, the other a little older. Quite telling of the generally accepted condition of teeth at the time, given that they were both on active service.

 

The film was IWM1099 unless it has been re-catalogued since I was there.

I will certainly take a look, thank you!

Edited 11 January , 2017 by HF1972
typo

[HF1972]

On 1/5/2017 at 11:34, petwes said:

Helen

I'm no expert but as you say the sheet seems to be a summary of his medical history.  The entries don't appear to be annual check ups, more on an as required basis. My reading of the entry is that the dentures were chargeable to the individual otherwise I can't see the need for the cost to be recorded. 

Peter

Hello Peter

It was not until 10th November 1915 that the army started to pay grants towards the cost of treatment, which may have been completely borne by the soldier. There were some differences over the country. The Northern Command ran a trial (I will need to go back to the report for the dates) to pay for any dental work to make a man fit for service. I am pretty sure that this was before the start of the war.

 

Best wishes

 

Helen.

[seaJane]

18 minutes ago, HF1972 said:

Hello Sea Jane

This is interesting because I have written about the Admiralty taking over the cost of dentures, and this ties in with the dates that I have from another source.

Thank you for leaving it here for me.

Helen

I can look for the previous orders mentioned, if that is any use to you?

Best wishes

sJ

[HF1972]

Hello Sea Jane,

 

If it is not too much trouble.  I would like to have some clarity on Admiralty orders, as I refer to the army orders but would like to speak more of the navy's approach too.

Bless you for your time.

 

Helen.

 

[seaJane]

No trouble - the dates are given in the 1917 example so they shouldn't take too long to trace.

[Guest]

Hi HF,

Just came across an example of someone discharged as he had 'no chewing teeth'. I have a few other dental bits and bobs saved to a folder on aspects of soldier's health that I find interesting, mainly from browsing pension records. Let me know if any more information would be a help to you?