1911 Census Demographics - Regular Battalions

[MBrockway]

  Mark- point taken both now and then .  You alerted me to the links between KRRC and Empire men-I am NOT (Lets use the navy signallers emphasis-REPETITION:NOT) suggesting that KRRC was set up in any way as a unit for Empire men but it does seem that there were links - I was wholly unaware of the links with Rhodesia until I ran keyword "Rhodesia" on CWGC and came up with a clutch of casualties in 2KRRC. -The Rhodesia Platoon- and for my other interest, I will be seeking to pick your brains on resources and writings about that.  My perusal of " British Empire Review" suggests that BEL supported and promoted both 17 and 20 KRRC in the expectation that some recruits could be steered by it into those battalions who had Empire connections. That 20 KRRC was recruiting as a service battalion for "pick and shovel" suggests the supply of returning Empire men was diminishing by the Autumn of 1915. The number of Empire men in King Edwards Horse is quite striking-the more so as it was a successor to Imperial Yeomanry.

We appear to be dancing in circles here!

 

Your post #96 above specifically claimed 17th and 20th KRRC were set up for Empire men.  My information from KRRC sources is that this was not the case.

 

Your work on the BEL sources at the British Library seems to have found contrary evidence in the BEL's organ and that the BEL had an "expectation that some recruits could be steered by it into [17/ and 20/KRRC] who had Empire connections".

 

I am very keen to see this evidence.  It would revise my KRRC "fact base" in an important area.

 

Could you oblige?

 

Quote

 

That 20 KRRC was recruiting as a service battalion for "pick and shovel" suggests the supply of returning Empire men was diminishing by the Autumn of 1915.

 

 

 

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here - neither in the first part, nor its apparent sequitur. 

 

Once more, I stress that 20/KRRC was not being filled by Empire men and that its original establishment was predominantly from the East End of London, from Somerset and from County Durham.

 

Regardless of the "Empire men" issue, are you suggesting a Pioneer battalion was somehow for inferior quality fighting men?

 

I am genuinely bamboozled by this sentence!

 

 

More than happy to help with the Rhodesia material when the time comes.

Cheers,

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

1st Bn Highland Light Infantry 1911 Census. One in three was born in England. 

 

Scotland          655*     59.6% ...... including 257 born in Glasgow

England           363      33.3%........including 200 born in London

Ireland               50

Wales                  2

Colonies             7

Other O'seas      6

Unknown            8

 

Total             1,091

 

* 239 Glaswegians (36.5%)

 

 

 

Top 30 locations. Note London consolidates comes to 200 individuals.

City of Glasgow	257
City of Edinburgh	101
Dundee City Council	40
London Borough of Tower Hamlets	35
North Lanarkshire Council	25
Aberdeen City Council	23
Highland Council	20
London Borough of Merton	19
South Lanarkshire Council	16
London Borough of Camden	16
Fife Council	16
London Borough of Hackney	14
Perth and Kinross Council	13
Dumfries and Galloway Council	13
London Borough of Newham	12
London Borough of Islington	12
Renfrewshire Council	11
Inverclyde Council	11
Stirling Council	9
London Borough of Bexley	9
Scottish Borders Council	8
Argyll and Bute Council	8
Northampton Borough Council	7
North Ayrshire Council	7
Newcastle upon Tyne City Council	7
London Borough of Wandsworth	7
London Borough of Waltham Forest	7
London Borough of Richmond upon Thames	7
London Borough of Greenwich	7
Falkirk District Council	7

 

Edited 13 November , 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

A summary of 10 battalions: 1911 Census data:  10,125 individuals. 

 

 

Edited 14 November , 2016 by Guest

[MBrockway]

Returning to 4/KRRC, here's a nice pic of them at the Elephant Gate in Delhi from 1911

 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Returning to 4/KRRC, here's a nice pic of them at the Elephant Gate in Delhi from 1911

 

 

 

Very nice. It would be wonderful to trace their names.  Is there a caption? Is this a Company? 

[Guest]

KRRC Summary so far: 

1st, 3rd and 4th Battalions.

Note: 1st Bn KRRC totals 698 individuals which feels about right for a Home based Battalion, which were typically under establishment. The Census data is for New Barracks, Gosport. Only 3 Scots-born men serving in this battalion and a total of 11 across all three battalions. Total number of men enumerated is 2,629.

 

Note: the data is rounded up. Anything less than 0.5% shows as 0%. Scots-born are 0.42% across all three battalions. QED.

 

 

Edited 14 November , 2016 by Guest

[MBrockway]

On 14/11/2016 at 11:42, QGE said:

KRRC Summary so far: 

1st, 3rd and 4th Battalions.

Note: 1st Bn KRRC totals 698 individuals which feels about right for a Home based Battalion, which were typically under establishment. The Census data is for New Barracks, Gosport. Only 3 Scots-born men serving in this battalion and a total of 11 across all three battalions. Total number of men enumerated is 2,629.

 

Note: the data is rounded up. Anything less than 0.5% shows as 0%. Scots-born are 0.42% across all three battalions. QED.

The 'Quod' that has been proven, is I think my position that the KRRC was not prevented from recruiting in Scotland, whereas GUEST had suggested they were.

 

I have never suggested large numbers of Scots in Scotland enlisted into the 60th, particularly in peacetime, only that they could and that they did, and the fact remains that one regularly sees KRRC and RB riflemen remembered on war memorials across Scotland.

 

[MBrockway]

2 hours ago, QGE said:

 

 

Very nice. It would be wonderful to trace their names.  Is there a caption? Is this a Company? 

Unfortunately no caption on my source (RGJA).  One such may exist elsewhere, but with such a large group it's likely to be just details of the company/companies present, rather than complete names.

 

I haven't counted them, but it is clearly not the whole battalion.

 

Your 1911 census return is de facto a nominal roll - very handy!

 

Mark

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

Unfortunately no caption on my source (RGJA).  One such may exist elsewhere, but with such a large group it's likely to be just details of the company/companies present, rather than complete names.

 

I haven't counted them, but it is clearly not the whole battalion.

 

Your 1911 census return is de facto a nominal roll - very handy!

 

Mark

 

 

When I have finished cleaning the data, if you would like, I can email the spreadsheet. I need to find 2nd Bn KRRC then add. PM me if you need it. MG

[bootneck]

MG

 

Thanks for your reply regarding my query about 1st Bn ESR. I was lucky to find half the battalion at Kinsale as I used Redrup to find them; luckily his surname was recorded in full on the 1911 Irish Census Return.

 

As I previously mentioned my problem is trying to locate the other half of the battalion, which should be on Spike Island and at Camden Fort (both in Cork). I managed to find the return for Spike Island but it only contained members of the RGA. I'll just have to keep on looking.

 

regards

 

Bootneck 

[MBrockway]

2 hours ago, QGE said:

 

When I have finished cleaning the data, if you would like, I can email the spreadsheet. I need to find 2nd Bn KRRC then add. PM me if you need it. MG

Martin - that would be brilliant. 

 

One thing I can then do is a two file collate against the medal roll data to see the regulars who went on to serve for the duration of war with some caveats obviously)

 

Perhaps also a comparison against the SWB rolls, which definitely contain riflemen awarded SWB on discharge T/E.

 

I'll PM you.  Probably tomorrow though as busy on rescue team business this evening.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Martin - that would be brilliant. 

 

One thing I can then do is a two file collate against the medal roll data to see the regulars who went on to serve for the duration of war with some caveats obviously)

 

Perhaps also a comparison against the SWB rolls, which definitely contain riflemen awarded SWB on discharge T/E.

 

I'll PM you.  Probably tomorrow though as busy on rescue team business this evening.

One of my projects for 2017 is to transcribe the KRRC and Rifle Brigade diaries. I am up to my eyes in the Foot Guards / Guards Div at present, but when complete I will focus on the Rifles. 

 

I am getting side-tracked by the Census data. I have located the Census books for nearly 50 battalions which is close to a third of all the regular battalions that fought the good fight in 1914. I have also stumbled on some data for an SR Battalion (Devonshire) and the Depot for the R Sussex... so I am getting glimpses of their makeup as well, although the sample sizes are low hundreds. Still cant find 2nd Bn KRRC. Where was the Battalion in 1911. Please don't tell me it was Ireland... 

 

I am interested in exploring ways of splicing databses, particularly medal rolls and Census data; when hyperlinked to diary date it could be useful. ...Given you familiarity with some of the necessary technology and an ability to manipulate (in a good way) data, if you have any suggestions they would be very welcome. The SWB rolls is something I have barely touched. 

Edited 14 November , 2016 by Guest

[RussT]

39 minutes ago, QGE said:

Still cant find 2nd Bn KRRC. Where was the Battalion in 19111. Please don't tell me it was Ireland... . 

 

From the Annals of the King's Royal Rifle Corps: Vol 4 "The K.R.R.C." 1872-1913, they were apparently in the UK:

 

 

[RussT]

I "think" this may be the first page of the 1911 Census return for the 2nd Bn KRRC at Shorncliffe Camp:

 

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_04649_0283_34?pid=51013772&backurl=//search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DLwk2359%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsln%3Dwortley%26gsln_x%3D0%26gskw%3Dshorncliffe%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dhbo%26pcat%3D1911UKI%26h%3D51013772%26db%3D1911England%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Lwk2359&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=rg14_04649_0030_34

 

 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, RussT said:

 

From the Annals of the King's Royal Rifle Corps: Vol 4 "The K.R.R.C." 1872-1913, they were apparently in the UK:

 

 

 

 

Russ T - Brilliant. Found them in the Census under Kent, Cherition (nearest point to Shorncliffe). Also found the 11th Hussars which is doubly positive (a regiment close to my family). Thank you. Twice. MG

Edited 15 November , 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, RussT said:

I "think" this may be the first page of the 1911 Census return for the 2nd Bn KRRC at Shorncliffe Camp:

 

 

 

 

Russ - I would be interested in your methodology for finding this. i.e search words etc... MG

[RussT]

22 minutes ago, QGE said:

 

Russ - I would be interested in your methodology for finding this. i.e search words etc... MG

 

I'm afraid it wasn't very scientific (having never tried such a search before) - nevertheless it didn't take me too long - but perhaps I was just lucky with a relatively unusual name.

 

In the snippet above from the KRRC Annals, I noted the Brig-Gen's name of Stuart-Wortley. So I entered that as a surname and the keyword Shorncliife. I didn't get any hits so I shortened the surname to Worsley and up popped at the top of the list what I thought might be a son (Nicolas Rothesay Montague Stuart Worsley) on camp. Hitting that page led me to the Military Barracks 1911 census return. Then a coarse manual pagination backwards/forwards led me to the relevant KRRC pages.

 

So it looks like an unusual name helped in this case.

 

If you/anyone finds a robust methodology, I'll be interested! 

 

Russ

Edited 14 November , 2016 by RussT

[MBrockway]

The Stuart-Wortleys are a well known rifles dynasty :-)

 

[Derek Black]

Martin,

 

Have you found all of the 1st Btn Black Watch on the census?

I've about 400 in Barrack Hill, Limerick, Ireland, but there must be a few hundred more i'm not finding.

Derek.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Derek Black said:

Martin,

 

Have you found all of the 1st Btn Black Watch on the census?

I've about 400 in Barrack Hill, Limerick, Ireland, but there must be a few hundred more i'm not finding.

Derek.

 

 

Derek - The Black Watch I have located are the 2nd Bn in India.

 

I have not been able to trace anyone in Ireland. The Irish Census data is not available on Ancestry to my knowledge. ANy pointers would be gratefully received. MG

[Guest]

KRRC Summary

 

 

[bootneck]

You can find details regarding the Irish Censuses here http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie and can search the 1901 and 1911 Census here http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search. A table of the British Military in Cork Barracks 1881-1911 can be found at https://sites.google.com/site/protestantcork191136/protestant-military-in-cork-barracks-1881-1911.

Census returns for military barracks were entered on Form H and initials were usually used. If you are lucky occasionally surnames are entered. As mentioned before I have about half of the 1^st Bn ESR, A total of 381 of which 104 have their surname entered in the 1911 Census.

Bootneck     

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, bootneck said:

You can find details regarding the Irish Censuses here http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie and can search the 1901 and 1911 Census here http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search. A table of the British Military in Cork Barracks 1881-1911 can be found at https://sites.google.com/site/protestantcork191136/protestant-military-in-cork-barracks-1881-1911.

Census returns for military barracks were entered on Form H and initials were usually used. If you are lucky occasionally surnames are entered. As mentioned before I have about half of the 1^st Bn ESR, A total of 381 of which 104 have their surname entered in the 1911 Census.

Bootneck     

 

 

Thanks Bootneck. This is useful. I did stumble on the site some time ago but could not fathom out how to search by keyword such as 'barracks'. It seems to be very limited in the fields that could be searched. Unless one already knows exactly where the barracks were it seems a challenge. So I abandoned this route, perhaps prematurely. On a positive note it would appear that the information is there and available online, so thank you again for pointing me in the right direction.  

 

The list below shows the number of regular battalions based in Ireland in 1914. I assume this is a close proxy for 1911 and the Census. You have kindly pointed out the names of the barracks in Cork. I would be interested in finding out the names of the Barracks or at least the sub-district they were in as it would help me find them in the Census. 

 

I am also interested in Special Reserve and Extra Reserve and Depots, so any pointers would be gratefully received. MG

 

Ireland, Belfast	2
Ireland, Buttevant, Co Cork	1
Ireland, Cork, Co Cork	2
Ireland, Curragh	3
Ireland, Dublin	5
Ireland, Fermoy	2
Ireland, Kinsale	1
Ireland, Limerick	1
Ireland, Londonderry	1
Ireland, Mullingar	1
Ireland, Tipperary	1

Edited 15 November , 2016 by Guest

[Derek Black]

1st Btn Black Watch starts at 19.40 A-Y listings

 

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Limerick/Limerick_No__4_Urban/Barrack_Hill/

[bootneck]

Just a quick update re 1st Bn ESR. I've managed to find 438 all ranks out of a total of 709. 381 are at Kinsale Fort, 31 at Fort Camden, Crosshaven Hill and 26 at Haulbowline Island, Queenstown Rural. Now only another 231 to find somewhere in Cork.

 

Bootneck