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Seaforth Highlanders - Irishman - help please


Sapper24
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The attached article relates to Thomas Murray who served with the Seaforth Highlanders. No medals with the family so his service number is unknown, rumour that he was awarded the MM but no evidence to support this. Any help to establish his service details would be greatly appreciated.  

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Certainly difficult to find.

 

5th (Extra Reserve) Battalion
August 1914 : at Downpatrick. A training unit of the Special Reserve, it moved on mobilisation to Belfast. Moved to Holywood in May 1915 and on to Ballykinlar in March 1918. Moved to England in April 1918, going to Larkhill.

 

He would have joined that , then transferred to another RIR battalion, or gone straight to Seaforths for overseas posting

 

The only MIC that I can find the might cover both Irish Rifles and Seaforth man is, and that is dodgy on whether the second line is referring to an Irish Regt or to some Training  Reserve

 

murray.jpg

 

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Thanks Corisande, sadly I don't think it is a match as I found this MIC on the National Archives and the second line is a training battalion...

 

We have another newspaper cutting which also says transferred from the 5th Battalin Ulster Rifles to the Seaforths...there is another thread on here saying the Seaforth did recruit/yake transferee in Belfast in 1915, guess they were undermanned and next in line for France?

 

The transferred bit in the clippings is interesting, as the family thought he was found out and discharged and then rejoined but this Seaforths recruiting Irish men may help explain things....Thomas was 13 when he allegedly signed up so would have given a DOB of 1895ish

 

Any more steers are greatly received

Edited by HolymoleyRE
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6 minutes ago, HolymoleyRE said:

Thanks Corisande, sadly I don't think it is a match as I found this MIC on the National Archives and the second line is a training battalion...

 

We have another newspaper cutting which also says transferred from the 5th Battalin Ulster Rifles to the Seaforths...there is another thread on here saying the Seaforth did recruit/yake transferee in Belfast in 1915, guess they were undermanned and next in line for France?

 

The transferred bit in the clippings is interesting, as the family thought he was found out and discharged and then rejoined but this Seaforths recruiting Irish men may help explain things....Thomas was 13 when he allegedly signed up so would have given a DOB of 1895ish

 

Any more steers are greatly received

One of the problems will be that, if he only served at 'home' with the Irish Rifles, it'll not be (in most cases) shown on his medal index card.

 

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252
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Thanks Craig,

 

Would he only ever of had one MIC from the Seaforths or if he moved to another battalion would they create a new one main reason is he claims to have left as a LCpl, as when he entered WW2 service he was made a Cpl, then Sgt..I also believe there was a switch from regimental numbers to service numbers too which may not help?

 

The photo of which we have the original clearly shows my Grandfather on the right with medal ribbons, and from what I can tell there only looks enough ribbon to be three medals...Pip, Squeak and Wilfred, but if never got to the front in time in 1915, he wouldn't of got the Star, but could be the allusive MM...

 

My dad as a boy, can remember seeing a medal hangar which was quite elaborate like antlers, which does sort of match the MM...

 

There is also a family story that he was seen filing the name off a medal...which sounds dodgy,  but he if joined under a different name (a relative that couldn't fight) then this would ring true if on parade in the RASC or later in Irish Special Constabulary...the last thing you would want is to be caught with another mans medals on...!

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21 minutes ago, HolymoleyRE said:

Thanks Craig,

 

Would he only ever of had one MIC from the Seaforths or if he moved to another battalion would they create a new one main reason is he claims to have left as a LCpl, as when he entered WW2 service he was made a Cpl, then Sgt..I also believe there was a switch from regimental numbers to service numbers too which may not help?

 

The photo of which we have the original clearly shows my Grandfather on the right with medal ribbons, and from what I can tell there only looks enough ribbon to be three medals...Pip, Squeak and Wilfred, but if never got to the front in time in 1915, he wouldn't of got the Star, but could be the allusive MM...

 

My dad as a boy, can remember seeing a medal hangar which was quite elaborate like antlers, which does sort of match the MM...

 

There is also a family story that he was seen filing the name off a medal...which sounds dodgy,  but he if joined under a different name (a relative that couldn't fight) then this would ring true if on parade in the RASC or later in Irish Special Constabulary...the last thing you would want is to be caught with another mans medals on...!

The same Medal Index Card should be used for all overseas service (excepting the occasional clerical error where records haven't been linked correctly). There was a change around in the way many men were numbered in later 16/early 17 but usually this went without a hitch.


Lance Corporal was an appointment rather than a rank (the substantive rank was Private) so it's quite common for Lance Corporal appointments not to be noted on a Medal Index Card.

 

Are you able to get a closer picture of the medal ribbons ?

 

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252
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There was a Thomas Murray in the 1/4 Bn. Seaforth Highlanders (PTE 3191) who received the 'Pip, Squeak and Wilfred'; who (presumably in 1916 or after) went to the Royal Defence Corps (PTE 75399), and then appears to have returned to the Seaforth Highlanders (PTE 200868).

 

If wounded, could he have been deemed unfit and transferred to the Royal Defence Corps?

 

In the photo above, can anyone identify the cap badge?  RASC maybe?

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3 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

The same Medal Index Card should be used for all overseas service (excepting the occasional clerical error where records haven't been linked correctly). There was a change around in the way many men were numbered in later 16/early 17 but usually this went without a hitch.


Lance Corporal was an appointment rather than a rank (the substantive rank was Private) so it's quite common for Lance Corporal appointments not to be noted on a Medal Index Card.

 

Are you able to get a closer picture of the medal ribbons ?

 

Craig

 

 

Thanks again Craig, bit confused by the comment LCpl was an appointment, this would kind of apply if he was never made susbstantive i.e. acting or local rank .. when I was LCpl it was definately a rank....?

 

Bit of update from one of his Sons, his version which differs slightly from Dads, says was he was discharged when he became wounded as it was then they found his real age...so as an under age soldier being discharged would he have still got any Medals?

 

So any convalescing in in a rear echelon unit before returning to the front may be unlikely.

 

Yes he was RASC in WW2 as a Driver/Dispatch rider but we are not convinced he went any further than Aldershot...we have got his dog tags (which has MM in it?)...I have been trying to convince my dad to send off to SPVA to see if there are any service records...

Edited by HolymoleyRE
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Thanks again Craig, bit confused by the comment LCpl was an appointment, this would kind of apply if he was never made susbstantive i.e. acting or local rank .. when I was LCpl it was definately a rank....

It was made a rank at some later date - in WW1 it was one of the appointments for Privates (Kings Regulations 1914. rank left - appointment right)

 

EDIT:

1961 apparently -


Capture.JPG

 

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252
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Mystery Partly solved.....

 

This is from the service history of Robert Morrow Murray, My Great Grandad sadly not Thomas John..

 

 

It is definitely him, his wife is Jane Calvert which is correct, his children are on there, Thomas John being one of the.

No one every knew he went to France, as he was serving well before 1914.

 

He was awarded the

 

1914 -15 Star
The British War Medal
The Victory Medal

And the Military Medal from what I can see as the gazette reference is there .....!

 

I will still endevour to search for Thomas's records...Because I think it is entirely pluasible he wanted to follow his Dad to France in 1915....got there and was wounded, age found out and discharged...and as such would never have been issued any rightful medals....so thereafter used his Dads.....?

 

This is great news to the whole family...thanks to those who posted as it has given me the kick up the ass I needed!

FB_IMG_1478381430644.jpg

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