London Regt battalions full dress uniforms - Caton Woodville plates

[Drew-1918]

I think that sums up the issue perfectly.

 

Does anyone have the Annals of the KRRC: Appendix Volume- Uniform, Arms and Equipment.  I wondered if it might contain anything of use in a comparative sense, though I know it would not necessarily provide any firm answers. Is there anything similar for the Rifle Brigade?

 

Chris

Edited 15 September , 2018 by Drew-1918

[FROGSMILE]

On 12/09/2018 at 16:10, MBrockway said:

The following concerning the rifle green tunics described in the KRRC Dress Regulations of 1857 is relevant ...

 

[Source: The Annals of the King's Royal Rifle Corps - Appendix: Uniform, Armament and Equipment.  S.M. Milne & Major-Genl.Astley Terry (London 1913), p.28]

 

Perhaps some of the rifle volunteers chose to avoid the dye fastness issues by opting for full-on black?

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

That certainly seems to be what Drew's investigations suggests.

 

I enclose a photo that in my opinion shows LRB wearing a very dark shade of frock or (in some cases) jacket, and trousers that implies black.

 

Notice in the band photo however, how the frocks uniformly appear lighter than the trousers.

 

 

Edited 15 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

4 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

I think that sums up the issue perfectly.

 

Does anyone have the Annals of the KRRC: Appendix Volume- Uniform, Arms and Equipment.  I wondered if it might contain anything of use in a comparative sense, though I know it would not necessarily provide any firm answers. Is there anything similar for the Rifle Brigade?

 

Chris

 

Chris - I own a copy.  The quotation was typed from it directly.  There are no photographs in it, only drawings and painting.  Mark

 

 

 

[Drew-1918]

Oh yes, how silly of me. I see now. Apologies.

[FROGSMILE]

The enclosed artwork suggests that black or perhaps Oxford mixture trousers were worn with rifle green full dress tunics by most rifle regiments.

[Drew-1918]

I posted this picture in post No. 125. I think it is interwar and it is possible they may have changed their uniform slightly by that point. On the other hand, now that you mention it, I think the photograph I posted with it (and which I think is just pre-WW1), has the black trousers and Rifle green tunic you mention. 

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

I posted this picture in post No. 125. I think it is interwar and it is possible they may have changed their uniform slightly by that point. On the other hand, now that you mention it, I think the photograph I posted with it (and which I think is just pre-WW1), has the black trousers and Rifle green tunic you mention. 

 

Yes I could see it was a later period Chris, it’s just that I seem to find more and more evidence that nether garments were often black, and I’m really intrigued to find out whether for a period at least these were the “almost black” Oxford Mixture, less scarlet welt, that was worn for a lengthy period by the regiments of the Line.

Edited 23 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Drew-1918]

I was reading the following today in the battalion orders for April 1905 for the 4th Volunteer Bn. The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regt):

"Review Order- All Ranks: Same as drill order, except that the tunic and black cloth trousers will be worn."

It seems to be another case where the tunic is referred to and then the trousers are specifically described as black. This was in The Lambeth and Southwark Volunteers, by J. M. A. Tamplin

[Drew-1918]

Plate 140 includes a photograph of "Pte. -. Kennedy ...wearing the dark green tunic of the 4th Volunteer Battalion, with scarlet cuffs and green Alsation knot on each arm". Kennedy left the Battalion in 1908, rejoined in 1914, served with the 2/24th and was badly wounded in Palestine.

[FROGSMILE]

Great photo Chris and I think that that quote is very conclusive and incontrovertible evidence.

[MBrockway]

I assume the inference then is that Drill Order is the patrol style jacket?  I guess the question then is whether this was black or rifle green, with the former sounding the more likely.  It also perhaps sounds like the black cloth trousers of Review Order were different from whatever trousers were worn in Drill Order.

 

However, we are definitely progressing towards a definitive conclusion!

[Drew-1918]

Drill Order in 1905 for this Battalion was, “Drab serge service jacket and trousers, slouch hat...” etc. 

[Drew-1918]

For what it is worth, in 1886, Officers of the Bloomsbury Rifles were wearing the patrol jacket in Drill and Marching Order. There is no mention of its colour, unfortunately:

 

 

 

Looks like the men had to make do with the tunic for all occasions at this point. 

 

 

Edited 23 September , 2018 by Drew-1918

[Drew-1918]

...Which reminds me of the 6th London history which states,

 ‘...but still the one dress only was recognised, that of “rifle” green with scarlet-and-green facings, which had to suffice the men for all occasions. Great was the joy, in consequence, when in the following year (1899) blue serge trousers and jacket were issued as “service dress.” But blessings in the Army are seldom unmixed, and when the new clothing was worn for the first time, during annual training of that year, many discovered with dismay that the blue dye was not fast. After strenuous field operations, the colour would leave its almost indelible marks upon the skin, and the battalion would resemble an army of Ancient Britons covered in woad.’

 

I am aware that the advent of blue serge is well documented, but include this just to add to the general picture of the development of these uniforms in the Volunteers/London TF and also because of its reference to the uniform of the men. 

Edited 24 September , 2018 by Drew-1918

[MBrockway]

I speculate whether they resolved the blue dye fastness disaster by bulk re-dyeing in black?  Perhaps as a temporary expedient?  Scrapping a complete battalion's worth of blue serge would have been a difficult pill to swallow for the volunteers.

 

Great sources from the 8th Surrey RVC/4 VB, Queens/24th LR and the Bloomsbury Rifles, Chris - the information in Astley-Terry & Milne on the KRRC is nowhere near as detailed.  There might be equivalent detail available in late Victorian KRRC Standing Orders, but so far I've been outbid on all my attempts to acquire same!

 

 

[Drew-1918]

I think you might be right and I hope we can confirm that at some point.

 

I would love to see KRRC or Rifle Brigade Standing Orders, but as you say, I imagine they are very hard to get hold of. 

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

For what it is worth, in 1886, Officers of the Bloomsbury Rifles were wearing the patrol jacket in Drill and Marching Order. There is no mention of its colour, unfortunately:

 

 

 

Looks like the men had to make do with the tunic for all occasions at this point. 

 

 

 

That’s interesting Chris, at least we know that the terms patrol jacket and tunic cannot be referring to a “drab” (i.e. brownish khaki) garment.

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

I think you might be right and I hope we can confirm that at some point.

 

I would love to see KRRC or Rifle Brigade Standing Orders, but as you say, I imagine they are very hard to get hold of. 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with both of you that these documents are a wonderful resource.  I have no doubt that the Rifles and Gurkhas Museum at Winchester will have copies of said SOs in its collection.  These ought to be accessible via visits in person but I don’t know if they have been digitised.

[Drew-1918]

Many thanks.  I will try and look into it. 

[Drew-1918]

The following photograph is of a 3rd Bn. KRR man in Aldershot, 1906. It shows the kind of tunic I consistently see the QVR wearing. Next to him I have posted a Rifleman, believed to be QVR, wearing what appears to be the same style of tunic. The photographs below these two show a different type of KRR tunic and one that you tend to see the Rangers or the City of London Rifles wearing. Apologies, as I have touched on this before and also posted one or two of these photographs. Is there any reason for the difference in tunics- why did the KRRC have these two different styles? It is possible, of course, that I am merely seeing pictures from different time periods. At this stage though, I do not think that is the case. My feeling is that the QVR prefered the first style. Hopefully I am not pulling things too far from recent discussion, but I think it is related in some sense. 

 

Example tunic style No. 1

( Thin scarlet line at base of collar, 5 buttons, pockets underneath line of belt).

3rd Bn. K.R.R., 1906

 

                                                                                                      Believed to be 9th London Rgt.

 

 

Example tunic style No. 2

(Main part of collar red, 7 buttons, no pockets, more prominent scarlet facings)

 

12th London Rgt. (Rangers). 1909

 

12th (County of London) Btn. (Rangers), Posted by High Wood, BCMB Forum

 

 

 

 

Edited 2 November , 2018 by Drew-1918

[FROGSMILE]

Chris the top two with 5 and 7 buttons, lower pocket flaps and red piping at base of collar are home service undress frocks, only the lowermost with scarlet collar is a full dress tunic.  To this day the successor to the frock - rifle green No 1 Dress - has red piping at the base of the collar.

Edited 25 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Drew-1918]

I see, many thanks for that. I wonder why I never seem to see the QVR in the ‘proper’ full dress tunic. Just coincidence perhaps. 

 

Edit: I note that the interwar Rangers and QVR 'patrol' jackets  posted earlier in the thread both have the red piping below the collar. 

Edited 25 September , 2018 by Drew-1918

[Peter J]

14 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

The following photograph is of a 3rd Bn. KRR man in Aldershot, 1906. It shows the kind of tunic I consistently see the QVR wearing. Next to him I have posted a Rifleman, believed to be QVR, wearing what appears to be the same style of tunic. The photographs below these two show a different type of KRR tunic and one that you tend to see the Rangers or the City of London Rifles wearing. Apologies, as I have touched on this before and also posted one or two of these photographs. Is there any reason for the difference in tunics- why did the KRRC have these two different styles? It is possible, of course, that I am merely seeing pictures from different time periods. At this stage though, I do not think that is the case. My feeling is that the QVR prefered the first style. Hopefully I am not pulling things too far from recent discussion, but I think it is related in some sense. 

 

Example tunic style No. 1

( Thin scarlet line at base of collar, 5 buttons, pockets underneath line of belt).

 

3rd Bn. K.R.R., 1906                                                                                                      Believed to be 9th London Rgt.

 

 

Example tunic style No. 2

(Main part of collar red, 7 buttons, no pockets, more prominent scarlet facings)

 

12th London Rgt. (Rangers). 1909

 

12th (County of London) Btn. (Rangers), Posted by High Wood, BCMB Forum

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris,

 

The Queen Victoria's Rifleman is wearing what appears to be the reduced size gilding-metal Scout badge, first class, which was introduced in 1907 (Pattern 6657/1907). If of any use, this will at least provide you with a 'not before' date for the photograph. I believe this reduced size badge was approximately 45mm in height, and I mention this purely to illustrate that since the badge in your picture does not appear to be bigger than this, the picture cannot have been taken pre-1907. The earlier first and second class Scout badges (Patterns 6249/1905 and 6250/1905 respectively) had been larger in size: https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/album.php?albumid=588&pictureid=133107

 

P

Edited 26 September , 2018 by Peter J

[Drew-1918]

Fantastic! Thank you very much

indeed. That helps a lot. 

 

Chris

[Peter J]

It also goes without saying that the ‘T’ on the rifleman’s shoulder places the picture as not being pre-TF, of course. I completely missed that [cringe!]