London Regt battalions full dress uniforms - Caton Woodville plates

[Drew-1918]

Officer, London Rifle Brigade

[Drew-1918]

The following is probably nothing new, and I think Mark has touched on it, but here is the information from Hart's Annual Army Lists on "Uniforms and Facings". I hope it is of interest. The only real surprise for me was the LRB in 1913. At different points, and even in the Great War history, I have seen the LRB uniform described as black, but presumed that it was rather that the Rifle green uniform sometimes came up very dark. Did the LRB ever wear black? I think I remember seeing some Rifle Brigade officers dress uniforms of that colour. The "Green/Scarlet" seems strange as well. 

 

Any blanks below are due to the fact that nothing was recorded for that year. 

 

Edited 9 September , 2018 by Drew-1918

[FROGSMILE]

I believe that they wore black trousers, Drew, as did the KRRC.  I agree that these things are not always clear, and I recall Mark and I looking into the matter once before in connection with the KRRC, but also RB.  Part of the problem is that until the invention of colour fast dyes (ironically by a German company) the other ranks uniform was usually much more black than that of the officers, especially in the case of the frock, serge, and matching trousers. The officers for some reason and in several cases wore very dark green tunics, but often black trousers.  Where this is the case the difference in shade is invariably apparent even with early black and white photography.  You can see this in your photo of the LRB officer.  Might not the Hart’s list information have been a typographic/printing error, duplicating the word black?

Edited 7 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

6 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

 The only real surprise for me was the LRB in 1913. At different points, and even in the Great War history, I have seen the LRB uniform described as black before, but presumed that it was rather that the Rifle green uniform sometimes came up very dark. Did the LRB ever wear black? I think I remember seeing some Rifle Brigade officers dress uniforms of that colour. The "Green/Scarlet" seems strange as wel. 

 

 

Nice table Chris - another great addition to the topic.

 

Re: Green/Scarlet for the LRB.  I agree it seems strange that the LRB is following the KRRC's colours when one might expect the Green/Black of the RB.  Perhaps not so strange though if one remembers that the LRB's first regimental affiliation in 1881 under the Childers Reforms was as the 9th VB of the King's Royal Rifle Corps.

 

The KRRC affiliation lasted through until the 1908 Haldane Reforms and the formation of the London Regt.

 

It was only when the regimental affiliations were re-established in 1916 that the LRB became affiliated to the Rifle Brigade.

 

I tend to agree with Frogsmile, that a black tunic/jacket may well be a confusion for a very dark rifle green.  I've certainly seen photographs of examples of rifle tunics that look very very dark, but which were definitely supposed to be rifle green.  As far as I know, the Rifle Brigade never wore black tunics or jackets.  I have a lot less material about the LRB though.

 

Mark

 

 

[Drew-1918]

Thank you both very much for your replies. You have given me a lot of interesting things to think about there.

 

It occurred to me that it might be some sort of mistake, though I didn’t think of the typographic error point. That is very possible; in fact, I think it stands to reason that it must be something like that. However, it was mention elsewhere of the LRB wearing black that made me wonder. ‘The History of the London Rifle Brigade, 1859-1919’, in referring to 1899, states:

 

“In the marches past, the lines were admirably dressed and the intervals and distances well preserved. It was impossible not to admire the black mass as it swung along, topped by the sea of cock’s feather plumes that rustled and fluttered in the breeze.”

 

Furthermore, in describing the transfer over to the Territorial Force in 1908, the history also notes: 

 

“The black uniform was also retained, but only for ceremonial parades, and the sergeants’ chevrons were altered so as to be the same as the Rifle Brigade, edged with gold braid.”

 

I have seen a few cigarette cards which clearly illustrate Frogsmile’s point about the black trousers with Rifle green tunic, so all this is not to mean that I disagree with anything stated above, just that I find it a curious point that they would be described in this way in such a text. I found it hard to see how an author with access to the official records and documents could make such an error.

 

I think Mark’s post about the LRB being affiliated to the KRRC from 1881 to 1916, might be a key point. I wonder if the LRB were officially supposed to be green/scarlet (because of this affiliation), but that they never took up the ‘option’ of switching uniforms. There are ample examples of the London Regiment behaving in exactly this way, both before and after 1908. This would explain why they are consistently described as “Green/Scarlet”, yet we never see photos of them dressed as such.

Edited 8 September , 2018 by Drew-1918

[Drew-1918]

K.R.R.C.

Edited 8 September , 2018 by Drew-1918

[Drew-1918]

Possibly of interest is the following, "London Rifle Brigade Officer Tunic", though I would accept that it is not hard and fast evidence. Also, perhaps the light and aging makes it appear to be a colour that it is not:

 

 

Source: Tumblr

 

Edited 8 September , 2018 by Drew-1918

[FROGSMILE]

I think it’s worth bearing in mind that black vulture feathers, black frogging (where worn), black facings and black trousers, gloves (worsted for ORs, leather for officers and WOs), and black boots would, en masse, give a very black appearance indeed.  It was because of that strikingly sombre look that the RB were knows as the Sweeps, or later, Black Mafia, as you will know.  The LRB would perhaps have been the same when reported upon by an onlooker/journalist more accustomed to scarlet clad soldiers.  That said, your quotes from the history do seem compellingly specific.

Edited 8 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

In the absence of contemporary colour photographs, it was exactly this sort of difficult question for which I started this topic!

 

There was an LRB officers shako on DNW last summer and described as 1902-1914, that is definitely black, not rifle green, though it has the green ball not the feathers:

Lot 1431, 19 July 2017 © Dix Noonan Webb

 

Here's a close up of a labelled 1903 (slight possibility of 1908) Rifle Brigade tunic that shows the differences in tone between the rifle green and the black piping:

 

Lastly I've had this 1939 Rangers (12/LR) lieutenant's jacket on file for a while that I'm not sure about: it was sourced from a fleaBay lot, so most certainly not definitive, but the labelled owner does appear in The Rangers in the Army List.  It is styled like a patrol jacket, but definitely appears black rather than rifle green.

 

The men in (supposedly) rifle green in the Caton Woodville plates wear a mixture of rifles tunics and this style of 'patrol' jacket with breast pockets.  Caton Woodville has the pocketed jackets often in a VERY dark tone too, that could easily actually be black.  I don't know whether the plates are intended to show regimental differences of the same order of dress, or whether all/most of the battalions wore tunics in full ceremonial dress and these 'patrol' jackets in a less formal order of dress.  Certainly at least one of the soldiers in the Caton Woodville plates is in khaki SD.

 

I'm sure we'll resolve these Qs eventually!

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 21 August , 2023 by MBrockway
Restored link to lot image after DNW name change to Noonan's

[Drew-1918]

13 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think it’s worth bearing in mind that black vulture feathers, black frogging (where worn), black facings and black trousers, gloves (worsted for ORs, leather for officers and WOs), and black boots would, en masse, give a very black appearance indeed.  It was because of that strikingly sombre look that the RB were knows as the Sweeps, or later, Black Mafia, as you will know.  The LRB would perhaps have been the same when reported upon by an onlooker/journalist more accustomed to scarlet clad soldiers.

That’s a very good point and explains it well.

 

8 hours ago, MBrockway said:

In the absence of contemporary colour photographs, it was exactly this sort of difficult question for which I started this topic!

 

Lastly I've had this 1939 Rangers (12/LR) lieutenant's jacket on file for a while that I'm not sure about: it was sourced from a fleaBay lot, so most certainly not definitive, but the labelled owner does appear in The Rangers in the Army List.  It is styled like a patrol jacket, but definitely appears black rather than rifle green.

 

 

The men in (supposedly) rifle green in the Caton Woodville plates wear a mixture of rifles tunics and this style of 'patrol' jacket with breast pockets.  Caton Woodville has the pocketed jackets often in a VERY dark tone too, that could easily actually be black.  I don't know whether the plates are intended to show regimental differences of the same order of dress, or whether all/most of the battalions wore tunics in full ceremonial dress and these 'patrol' jackets in a less formal order of dress.  Certainly at least one of the soldiers in the Caton Woodville plates is in khaki SD.

 

I'm sure we'll resolve these Qs eventually!

 

Mark

Great pictures and very interesting points. I saw an interwar QVR tunic (or rather patrol jacket) recently that looked the same as the Rangers one you just posted. It had the breast pockets and appeared to be black as well.

 

Chris

Edited 9 September , 2018 by Drew-1918

[FROGSMILE]

Extremely interesting to see the black shako Mark, and that certainly implies a black uniform providing it isn’t merely the discolouration of age, which the green tuft suggests it is not.  The patrol jacket is clear evidence too, and the long vertical pleats on each side of the button line suggests a special Regimental pattern.  All-in-all the evidence so far is very intriguing.  Generally it was just the full dress tunics that were clearly of rifle green hue.

[Drew-1918]

Just managed to locate what I had done with the photographs of the QVR jacket. It was dated 10/04/35 on the label:

 

 

 

 

It may be a small or irrelevant point, but in my opinion, pre-WW1, you tend to see the QVR and LRB in this style of jacket in photographs far more often than the 6th or 12th Londons. It is as if these latter battalions were more content to follow exactly the tunic style of the KRRC, whereas perhaps the QVR tried to go a slightly more distinct route. Perhaps this was also the case for the 'First in the City' boys. This doesn't explain the Rangers interwar, but is perhaps food for thought. 

 

It could be Rifle green, but my goodness it is dark. It could also be black that has faded to look a bit green or charcoal coloured.

Edited 10 September , 2018 by Drew-1918
Bloomin’ Autocorrect.

[FROGSMILE]

I agree with those points Drew.  The colour is a really tough call.  In most cases the serge material used to make undress jackets like the Patrol version you have displayed, but also the simpler frock, comes up as a noticeably more black hue.  See enclosed circa 1914 Scottish rifles frock compared with its shoulder strap.  This was at a time when the colour fasting had been much improved.

Edited 10 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

I repeat: the contributions on this topic continue not to disappoint. Exactly the evidenced debate I was hoping for.  Keep it up Chaps!

 

Looking back at the start of the topic, you'll remember that one of my conundrums was the differences in the Caton Woodville plates between the plain pocketless tunics and the pocketed 'patrol' style jackets,some of which seem to differ on pocketing below the waist belt too, as Chris has pointed out higher up  Were these genuine regimental differences, or differences in the order of dress depicted by Caton Woodville.

 

Frogsmile - what was the standard colour for the patrol jacket in the county line infantry regiments?  Dark blue?  Or black?  I'd always assumed blue, hence 'blue patrols'.

 

Mark

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, Drew-1918 said:

Just managed to locate what I had done with the photographs of the QVR jacket. It was dated 10/04/35 on the label:

 

 

 

Chris,

 

Fantastic examples of the QVR regimental buttons in ball and standard variants too.

 

I'll cross link these to the Rifle Regiment Buttons topic.

 

Mark

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, MBrockway said:

I repeat: the contributions on this topic continue not to disappoint. Exactly the evidenced debate I was hoping for.  Keep it up Chaps!

 

Looking back at the start of the topic, you'll remember that one of my conundrums was the differences in the Caton Woodville plates between the plain pocketless tunics and the pocketed 'patrol' style jackets,some of which seem to differ on pocketing below the waist belt too, as Chris has pointed out higher up  Were these genuine regimental differences, or differences in the order of dress depicted by Caton Woodville.

 

Frogsmile - what was the standard colour for the patrol jacket in the county line infantry regiments?  Dark blue?  Or black?  I'd always assumed blue, hence 'blue patrols'.

 

Mark

 

 

Mark,

 

From introduction in the 1890s, each of the Rifle regiments had Regimental ‘patterns’ of patrol jacket (i.e. those fitted with external pockets) that differed quite significantly.  In general, the London regiments tended to emulate either, KRRC, or RB styles, with the Irish Rifles going their own way entirely, and the Scottish Rifles adopting a kind of hybrid incorporating Rifles and lowland Scots features. 

 

The standard Line colours of patrol jacket / frock were initially scarlet and very dark (navy) blue (with officers required to equip themselves with both - less the Scottish regiments), but from 1902 the scarlet version was dropped in favour of a double breasted ‘frock coat’, also in dark blue.  With minor modifications, these have remained until the present day.

Edited 10 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

Thanks Frogsmile - a most useful summary.

 

I don't suppose there exists a comprehensive and trusted reference work covering all variant patrol jacket patterns used by the Rifle regiments and the many VF/TF battalions drawing on rifles traditions?

 

That would be darned handy for the bookshelf - particularly where variations are visible enough to be used for unit identification puzzles in old photos 

Edited 10 September , 2018 by MBrockway

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

Thanks Frogsmile - a most useful summary.

 

I don't suppose there exists a comprehensive and trusted reference work covering all variant patrol jacket patterns used by the Rifle regiments and the many VF/TF battalions drawing on rifles traditions?

 

That would be darned useful for the bookshelf

 

Sadly not in a single volume Mark.  The regular regiment patterns are well described (but not illustrated, as undress is neglected) in Dress Regulations.  Unfortunately there is no equivalent for the VF/TF, as they were largely regulated and administered by individual County Associations whose archival records vary significantly.

Edited 10 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Drew-1918]

What about the original manufacturers ‘catalogues’? (If that is the correct term).They sometimes come up for auction and I nearly got hold of one recently. Unfortunately, I lost out due to the time difference where I am.

 

The Scottish Rifles frock seems an important piece of evidence. The fact that the shoulder strap is Rifle green whilst the frock appears black, would seem to point to the fact that we should be thinking in terms of Rifle green being the intended colour; unless of course the shoulder strap is meant to be a different colour as with the facings. The button holes are also a green colour. I am thinking now of the Civil Service Rifles whose shoulder straps are sometimes edged with blue and sometimes completely blue, set against the grey of the uniform. I am probably well off here though.

 

I have a little more from the LRB history. First of all, there is a slight correction. One of the excerpts I quoted (1889) was from a newspaper report, the Pall Mall Gazette; therefore we should probably not take that as evidence that they wore black, as it is just an onlooker’s impression. Apologies!

 On the other hand, there is further corroboration of black being worn in certain circumstances:

 

‘1902

The officers adopted a black cap with peak, over which a khaki cover could be worn.’

 

‘1903

At camp men provided themselves with a khaki-drill jacket, which was cooler and less absorbent of dust than the black serges worn hitherto.’

 

Lastly, in describing the LRB Cadets, the history states:

 

‘The Boys’ own Magazine of the period wrote: “The uniform is remarkable for its extreme neatness and general utility. It consists of a short tunic and trousers of black ribbed cloth with facings of black braid, a little forage cap which is worn on the side of the head, completely à la militaire, gaiters, black gloves, a broad belt of black patent leather with a frog for the bayonet and fastened by a black snake hook.’

 

This article is from about 1860. There is a bit of ambiguity as to whether it also refers to the tunic as black, but I think taken together, all the mentions are fairly convincing. It seems, as I think was touched upon above, that the serge frock at least, was indeed black. It may be that the tunic proper was Rifle Green, but perhaps they preferred the former on certain occasions.

 

There are definitely depictions from the time of the LRB in Rifle Green, as I am certain you are aware, so it cannot be that they only wore black. It seems like it was worn at times though.  Do the following two pictures depict this difference? A little more official evidence would be nice. 

 

Black serge jacket?

 

 

Rifle green tunic?

 

I think the shako and cock's feathers were always black (aside from a green hue to the feathers), whether or not it was worn with Rifle Green or the 'serge' black tunic/jacket. 

 

These images all culled from online auctions sites. 

Edited 14 September , 2018 by Drew-1918

[FROGSMILE]

You make excellent points, Drew, and the evidence for a properly black uniform as a regulated intention is becoming more compelling by the day. The “tailor’s pattern books” are indeed  excellent sources, as they provide completely unequivocal evidence.  Battalion standing orders, or internal Regimental Dress Regulations for the guidance of young officers can also be good places to find detail. 

Edited 11 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Drew-1918]

Many thanks indeed.

 

Thanks also for the correct terms and pointers. 

[FROGSMILE]

On 11/09/2018 at 14:06, Drew-1918 said:

Many thanks indeed.

 

Thanks also for the correct terms and pointers. 

 

1. Notice the enclosed interpretation that shows black trousers, but both green tunic (correct) and frock (I believe incorrect).  I've often wondered if the 'black' trousers were actually "Oxford Mixture” (as described in regulations) but without the quarter inch scarlet welt of the Line regiments, as those nether garments were described as close to black, and were not changed to dark blue until after 1900.  It would have been a typical way to save expense.

Edited 12 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Drew-1918]

I see, many thanks. I wonder if they ever used Oxford Mixture for tunics/jackets. The Royal Artillery comes to mind. 

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, Drew-1918 said:

I see, many thanks. I wonder if they ever used Oxford Mixture for tunics/jackets. The Royal Artillery comes to mind. 

 

Possibly for frocks, I suppose, but I don’t think so because there were reliable colourfast dyes for the rendering of blue.

[MBrockway]

The following concerning the rifle green tunics described in the KRRC Dress Regulations of 1857 is relevant ...

 

Quote

  It was found impossible to obtain a green dye which could be depended upon to keep its colour; the consequence was that the tunics and, more noticeably, the shell jackets worn by the men were of every possible shade from blue to yellow, and presented a most motley appearance on parade.  A darker green was therefore introduced which continued to be worn till a permanent dye was obtained about 1897.

[Source: The Annals of the King's Royal Rifle Corps - Appendix: Uniform, Armament and Equipment.  S.M. Milne & Major-Genl.Astley Terry (London 1913), p.28]

 

The implication is rifle green became a few shades darker in the latter decades of the 19th Century before the better dyestuffs became available.

 

Less clear is whether the green reverted back to a lighter shade once the better dyes became available.  One would think they would match with what was already in the regiment.

 

Perhaps some of the rifle volunteers chose to avoid the dye fastness issues by opting for full-on black?

 

Mark

 

 

 

Edited 12 September , 2018 by MBrockway