London Regt battalions full dress uniforms - Caton Woodville plates

[Drew-1918]

Completely forgot I had the following. Not the clearest, but it is a coloured drawing that will perhaps do for the time being. Hope the date of the dress uniform pictured is not too far off our period of interest.  

I now recognise that this is meant to link the QVR with their Rifle Volunteers forebears. The shako clearly dates it to the early period in their development.  

 

9th London Rgt.

 

 

 

Edited 25 April , 2018 by Drew-1918
To add detail

[Drew-1918]

A very nice assortment of London Regiment men braving the rain in full dress uniform. (R.E., 16th, 5th and 23rd?) Bisley, September 1913 1914. I don't know why, but seems strange to see them dressed like this at that date.

 

Edited 15 April , 2018 by Drew-1918
Correction of date.

[MBrockway]

That's a corking good photo Drew!

[Drew-1918]

Cheers. 'Bert' writes on the back, "...Our Regiment has just volunteered to go abroad."

[Drew-1918]

I have sometimes wondered if that was why the were numbered 1st to 4th London Regiment, i.e. they had seniority in the Army order of precedence because of this affiliation.

[Drew-1918]

Thanks very much for going to the trouble of detailing all that. Much appreciated.

 

Here is the Royal Fusilier entry for the Army List 1907:

from archive.org

[MBrockway]

That extract is from Hart's Annual Army List from 1907 and the 5th, 6th and 7th Battalions referred to are the Militia battalions not the Volunteer Battalions.

 

I have yet to find VF units in Hart's Annual Army Lists before 1908.

 

VF may be listed in the Monthly Army List.  Does anyone have one from some time in 1907 that does show the Royal Fusiliers VB battalions?

 

 

[Drew-1918]

Apologies, Mark. Thanks for the correction. 

[MBrockway]

I'm more than happy to stand corrected on the affiliations of 1-4/LR to the Royal Fusiliers surviving past 1908 when all the other formal affiliations were severed, but I would very much prefer not to have my Topic, which was intended to be a reference resource for uniforms, go down the rabbit hole of the LR affiliations/re-affiliations and the lake of crocodiles that is the family tree of the 70 or so RVC units based in the London area!

 

Both of these have been extensively covered in several other older topics.  Could I prevail on the Pals to locate these and append further discussion on affiliations there? 

 

These are the two most important threads where Wienand Drenthe, Andy Pay and I thrashed out the rifles side of the LR.

London Regiment's former Volunteer Rifle Corps units

Battalions of the London Regiment

 

Understandably given our interests, we probably neglected the RF units rather.

 

Additions and corrections to this massive subject would be very much welcomed in either/both of those threads!

 

Your indulgence much appreciated!

Mark

 

Edited 26 December , 2016 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

An explanation!

 

The previous post was prompted by a very useful and interesting point raised by Martin G who alerted me to an inconsistency in my earlier statement that all affiliations between the VF Volunteer Battalions that became the London Regiment and their Regular regiments had been severed in 1908 when the TF was formed and the new London Regiment was established.

 

Martin pointed to this page in the 1913 Monthly Army List, which clearly contradicts this for the Royal Fusilier battalions 1-4/LR:

See here: http://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/pageturner.cfm?id=108016620&mode=fullsize

 

This is an important new insight that we had missed in the old LR and RVC affiliations topics above and definitely needs further discussion.

 

However I wanted to have that work appended to those topics not begun again here in a uniforms picture gallery, hence the post above.

 

Martin indulged my request a bit more than I intended and removed his several posts from this thread.

 

As well as the new info from the 1913 Army List he'd also written some handy summaries of the London-area RVC lineages.

 

I'm hoping these get re-posted into the affiliations topics and they're not lost to us forever.  He'd put a good bit of work into drafting them.

 

Merry Xmas!

Mark

[Drew-1918]

Mark, 

I hope you don't mind if I just finish to say that the Volunteer Battalions are mentioned in the monthly lists as you wondered. I had just been about to post the one for Jun 1901- before Id seen your post- when the kids intervened! I'll leave it there though. 

 

Moving back to uniforms, I was looking again at the pictures you originally posted. I think you wondered if this one was 'shiny seventh':

 

The following may be further corroboration of your thoughts on this picture. To be honest, I first thought the facings above were white, but looking again, I think you are probably correct. It is just the different artists' interpretations nearly got me. They certainly look darker below. Anyway, another picture out of interest. I don't own this one but link provided

7th London Regiment:

 

Taddy Territorial Regiments

 

Apologies for the late one, but Merry Christmas. 

Edited 28 December , 2016 by Drew-1918
Formatting

[FROGSMILE]

You might find this thread concerning the Shiny Seventh of interest with regards to full dress uniform:  http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=8182&p=37182&hilit=Shiny+Seventh#p37182

[FROGSMILE]

On 12/26/2016 at 00:28, MBrockway said:

An explanation!

 

The previous post was prompted by a very useful and interesting point raised by Martin G who alerted me to an inconsistency in my earlier statement that all affiliations between the VF Volunteer Battalions that became the London Regiment and their Regular regiments had been severed in 1908 when the TF was formed and the new London Regiment was established.

 

Martin pointed to this page in the 1913 Monthly Army List, which clearly contradicts this for the Royal Fusilier battalions 1-4/LR:

See here: http://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/pageturner.cfm?id=108016620&mode=fullsize

 

This is an important new insight that we had missed in the old LR and RVC affiliations topics above and definitely needs further discussion.

 

However I wanted to have that work appended to those topics not begun again here in a uniforms picture gallery, hence the post above.

 

Martin indulged my request a bit more than I intended and removed his several posts from this thread.

 

As well as the new info from the 1913 Army List he'd also written some handy summaries of the London-area RVC lineages.

 

I'm hoping these get re-posted into the affiliations topics and they're not lost to us forever.  He'd put a good bit of work into drafting them.

 

Merry Xmas!

Mark

 

I don't know if you are aware of this excellent (and seemingly exhaustive) rundown on the many facets of the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment):  http://rrflondon.2day.uk/siteFiles/files/RRFLondon_RFLocationofBattalions_1246371704.pdf

Edited 27 December , 2016 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

I don't know if you are aware of this excellent (and seemingly exhaustive) rundown on the many facets of the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment):  http://rrflondon.2day.uk/siteFiles/files/RRFLondon_RFLocationofBattalions_1246371704.pdf

 

Impressive. Thanks for posting.

[Drew-1918]

Loved the thread on the shiny seventh and the Royal Fusiliers link was very useful indeed. Many thanks. 

[MBrockway]

Same from me Frogsmile - really good thread on the Shiny Seventh and that RF source looks really useful.

 

I've often wondered why the Shiny Seventh used the flaming grenade badge more typical for fusiliers than rifle volunteers.  Any ideas on that?

 

As regards the affiliations of 1-4/LR between 1908 and 1916, that RF document is not 100% clear.  They're all marked as VB's of the Royal Fusiliers before 1908.  They're then all marked as battalions of the "London Regiment Royal Fusiliers" in 1908, which could be read as being still affiliated to the RF, but then on 07 Jul 1916 (which is the effective date of AO 250 of 1916) it states they're each "transferred to the Corps of Royal Fusiliers".  To me that seems to imply they were outwith the Corps of the RF before then!

 

With luck someone will turn up the relevant 1908 Army Order that clears all this up.

 

Mark

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Same from me Frogsmile - really good thread on the Shiny Seventh and that RF source looks really useful.

 

I've often wondered why the Shiny Seventh used the flaming grenade badge more typical for fusiliers than rifle volunteers.  Any ideas on that?

 

As regards the affiliations of 1-4/LR between 1908 and 1916, that RF document is not 100% clear.  They're all marked as VB's of the Royal Fusiliers before 1908.  They're then all marked as battalions of the "London Regiment Royal Fusiliers" in 1908, which could be read as being still affiliated to the RF, but then on 07 Jul 1916 (which is the effective date of AO 250 of 1916) it states they're each "transferred to the Corps of Royal Fusiliers".  To me that seems to imply they were outwith the Corps of the RF before then!

 

With luck someone will turn up the relevant 1908 Army Order that clears all this up.

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

I think that is a difficulty with the semantics, given the ostensible similarity between 'London Regiment' and 'Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment)'.  As you know, from 1908, the erstwhile VBs of the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment), became instead members of the London Regiment (TF), whilst retaining badges and association with the RF for permanent staff instructors and other support.  In 1916 the London Regiment ceased to exist and so the battalions concerned simply returned to the fold of the RF in a once more 'integrated' way.  I think that the RF document reflects all this, but not as clearly as it might for the elucidation of those less familiar.

Edited 27 December , 2016 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

I tend to agree and Martin's find in the 1913 Army List is pretty unequivocal.

 

That said, the former KRRC and RB VB battalions in the London Regt also continued their links with the KRRC between 1908 and 1916 with several having KRRC/RB Adjutants and senior WO's ... and those battalions were definitely NOT affiliated to the KRRC and RB after 1908.

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, MBrockway said:

I tend to agree and Martin's find in the 1913 Army List is pretty unequivocal.

 

That said, the former KRRC and RB VB battalions in the London Regt also continued their links with the KRRC between 1908 and 1916 with several having KRRC/RB Adjutants and senior WO's ... and those battalions were definitely NOT affiliated to the KRRC and RB after 1908.

 

Blimey!  That's why I said " whilst retaining badges and association (i.e. not 'affiliation') with the RF for permanent staff instructors and other support".

Edited 28 December , 2016 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

I really must stop posting at 2 a.m.

Edited 28 December , 2016 by MBrockway

[FROGSMILE]

40 minutes ago, QGE said:

The Army Lists post 1908 might provide some idea of the legacy connections between Battalions of the London Regt TF and Regular units. Here is a random snapshop from the Nov 1914 Army List showing the parent regiments of the regular Adjutants serving with the TF Battalions. The old affilitaions still lingered in some battalions. - three RB and six KRRC Adjutants as well as two RF. 

 

There are some small surprises such as 2nd, 4th and 18th Battalions. There seems to have been a small skew towards Irish Regiments (5 of the 26) who clearly had no TF outlets, but oddly the London Irish ended up with an Adjutant from the Queen's Royal West Surrey. Even the Adjutants of the Royal Fusiliers' affiliated 1st - 4th Battalions were not all RF Officers. The 22nd and the 24th (both "Queen's") did not have Adjutant's from the Queens.

 

One can understand the tilt towards RB and KRRC for legacy reasons and the Irish as they had no TF Battalions. The proximity of Surrey and Kent might explain some of the County Regiments however the Yorkshire Regt, Seaforth Hldrs, Sherwood Foresters, DCLI and Border Regt all appaear on the list - regiments with their own TF battalions. MG 

 

Bn  Adjt's Regiment

1     RF

2     Yorkshire Regt

3     RF

4     Leinsters

5     KRRC

6     Leinsters

7     Sherwood Foresters

8     RB

9     KRRC

10   RB

11   RB

12   DCLI

13   Connaught Rangers

14   Cameron Hldrs

15   KRRC

16   KRRC

17   KRRC

18   Queen's Royal West Surrey

19 

20  QORWK

21  KRRC

22  RDF

23  Seaforth Hldrs

24  RF

25  RDF

28  Border

 

 

 

That's a very interesting and illuminating rundown MG, thank you for posting it.

[MBrockway]

I was trying to avoid clogging this picture reference topic with all of this - we already have several topics on these affiliations (see links higher up) and I've posted on the adjutants before too.  You'll find a good bit of detail from me posted on Gasper Parish and Kid Kennedy of 15th and 21st Londons.

 

I absolutely do not want to discourage all this work.  It's just that you are repeating much work Andy, Wienand and I did a few years back and any new work would be much more fruitfully appended to the topics I linked to above that directly cover the affiliations, rather than this topic, which I intended to be a picture reference resource for the uniforms of the London Regiment (and to an extent, its pre-1908 antecedents).

 

The adjutants are interesting - you will notice some of these battalions have regulars who are KRRC when the affiliation is to the RB.  Our feeling is that the two rifles regiments used the London battalions as a useful training ground for officers with staff potential regardless of the affiliations and we have speculated that to a certain extent the officer corps of the two regiments was managed as one in terms of career development opportunities with London Regt battalions.

 

Can I please appeal again for all this highly worthwhile affiliation research to be placed into these London Regiment affiliations topics:

London Regiment's former Volunteer Rifle Corps units

Battalions of the London Regiment

 

Cheers,

Mark

(Still in Scotland with only sporadic web access)

[MaxD]

Cancel - duplicate post

Edited 19 January , 2017 by MaxD

[tintin1689]

Possibly not massively helpful here, but I knew one of the last members of the Corps of Drums of the 13th London - The Kensington Regiment (Princess Louise's) - and can confirm full dress was grey with first a grey helmet, then a forage cap (he could n't remember the colour) and the facings were red. It in no ways acted like a Rifle regiment (then nor really did the CS Rifles or the Artists). Regimental march was Lutzow's Wild Hunt, but at heavy infantry pace on flutes and drums. He was a keen Church Lads Brigade man, as had been most of them

[Drew-1918]

An attempt to illustrate the different full dress uniforms of the London Regiment. Any corrections more than welcome as there are so many fine details I could have got wrong.

 

 

1st (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers)

 

13/12/1859            Formed as the 19th Middlesex Rifle Corps

 

"...on formation the Corps were dressed in bluish grey uniform with scarlet facings and brown leather equipment. The french kepi was worn with scarlet piping and grey cocks feathers.

Pouch belt plates and pouch badges were worn with a bugle cap badge. Initially the badge was the universal French bugle but this was soon altered. A crown was added over the bugle and the numerals "19" were inserted in the centre, this changing to "10" in 1880. All these badges were in black or bronze for privates, white metal for N.C.O.'s and solid silver or silver plated for Officers. 

The grey uniform was abandoned in 1878 when red with blue facings were adopted.

 

3/9/1880                Renumbered as 10th Middlesex Rifles Corps

 

1/7/1881                Allotted as a volunteer Battalion of the King's Royal Rifle Corps, without change of Title. 

 

July 1883              Transferred as 1st Volunteer Battalion Royal Fusiliers

 

The Fusilier uniform was adopted in 1883 although the blue cloth helmet was still worn. 

In 1889, His Royal Highness, the Commander-in-chief having approved the Fusilier Headdress being adopted by the Battalion, it was ordered that all Blue Cloth Helmets be handed in and exchanged for Busbies. The exchange to take place on two nights, the 10th and 12th of April, 1889. Originally worn without white hackle, this being awarded after the Boer War. 

 

From The First Londons, by Ron Handley

 

 

 

 

2nd (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers)

 

Jan 1861      46th Middlesex Volunteer Rifle Corps

 

"The Corps consisted of eight companies, four of which were recruited from the City of London, and the other four, known as the 'Westminster Companies,' mainly from Westminster and Pimlico. From this fact came its unofficial title of the 'London and Westminster Rifle Volunteers' - a name by which the Corps was known for a number of years. In this early connexion with the City of London may be traced the reason why, at a later date, the Corps was chosen to be associated with the Royal Fusiliers- the City of London Regiment."

 

"The uniform of the newly-formed 46th Middlesex was a drab-grey with green facings. The belt and other accoutrements were black, and the headdress was a black shako with green tuft. Officers' tunics were laced with silver. No change of importance was made in the pattern of the uniform until 1876, when the colour was changed to scarlet with blue facings, belts and accouterments being changed at the same time to white buff. The shako, now being blue with a red and white tuft, continued to be worn until 1878, when the ordinary infantry pattern helmet was adopted. In addition to this new full dress, the officers adopted a frogged undress uniform, with which was worn a 'cheese-cutter' cap. Though seemingly of small importance beyond the expense involved, this was really a revolutionary change, in effect marking the conversion of the unit from a rifle to a line battalion, and, no doubt, contributing in some measure to the next, and important, change in the unit's status that occurred in 1883."

 

1880 Became the 23rd Middlesex.

 

July 1883 "Became the 2nd Volunteer Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers and adopted the uniform of the old 7th Foot*

 

*Scarlet with blue facings, and racoon-skin cap. For a time, the old pattern helmet, with Middlesex badge, continued to be worn by the 2nd Volunteer Battalion, Royal Fusiliers, Royal Fusilier grenades being worn as collar-badges of the tunic; but as stocks were exhausted, the helmet was replaced by the Fusiliers cap, to which the white hackle, on the right side, was added after the South African War, in recognition of the distinguished part played by the various Fusilier Regiments in that campaign. In addition to full dress, the officers had a frogged undress uniform and a cap with a silver-laced peak, and they also adopted the Mess dress of the Royal Fusiliers. The latter had innumerable small buttons down the front, and, save for the removal of these, the simplification of the braid ornament, and the substitution of a roll-collar for the stand-up collar of the original, it remains much the same today. A glengarry cap, with Royal Fusilier grenade, was at first worn with Mess dress, but was succeeded by a blue cap of ordinary, service-dress pattern. For field training, full dress with black leggings, was worn by all ranks. For such occasions, the shoulder-belt and pouch, sword belt and slings, of the officers, were of buff, pipe-clayed. For reviews and levees and for ceremonial occasions of a like nature, the officers required an even more elaborate dress, 'overalls,' with two half-inch silver stripes 'laid on,' with a crimson stripe between them, and special accoutrements, made of red leather, heavily stitched with silver, being the chief items. To distinguish them from the Regulars, the Volunteer officers wore silver lace on their uniforms instead of gold, a distinction that was abandoned on the introduction of the Territorial Force.

The uniform was later simplified by the introduction for all ranks of a red 'serge,' with blue facings, to be used instead of the full-dress tunic for field training. Later, again, this gave place to a blue 'serge' and finally to khaki service-dress. The frogged undress uniform of the officers was replaced by the blue patrol jacket, which, just prior to the Great War, was cut like the khaki service-dress jacket, and was worn with a white shirt and collar, and black tie."

 

From 2nd City of London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) In the Great War 1914-19, By Major W. E. Grey

 

 

 

4th (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers)

 

1643               Tower Hamlets Regiment of Trained Bands

 

1794               Re-organised as Volunteers.

 

1860               Tower Hamlets Rifle Volunteer Corps (12 Corps numbered 1-12).

 

1868               2^nd and 4^th Corps amalgamated, afterwards known as the 1^st Corps, and the title of “The Tower Hamlets Rifle Volunteer Brigade”.

                     The uniform was grey, with red and blue braidings, and the head-dress was a demi-shako, with “Chinese-cutter” peak.

 

1874               6^th Tower Hamlets Rifle Volunteer Corps (The North East London Rifles) were incorporated with the 1^st Corps. The Regimental       

                      badge was the White Tower of the Tower of London.

                      The War Office approved a change of uniform to scarlet on the 14^th November.

 

1894               In July, the glengarry cap worn in undress was replaced by the field service cap.

 

1877               Became a Volunteer Battalion of the Rifle Brigade. “For purposes of drill and discipline, however, it- with other Metropolitan Corps-  

                      formed part of a Volunteer Brigade, under Colonel commanding the Scots Guards, and formed one of the Battalions of the East      

                      London Volunteer Infantry Brigade.

 

1902               Brigades re-organised, and the Battalion posted to the 2^nd London Volunteer Infantry Brigade under the Irish Guards.

 

1903               Change of designation to The 4^th Volunteer Battalion, The Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment). Affiliated to the Royal         

                      Fusiliers.

 

1908               The 4^th (City of London) Battalion The London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)

 

From The History of the Old 2/4^th (City of London) Battalion, The London Regiment, Royal Fusiliers

Edited 19 August , 2019 by Drew-1918
Update