London Regt battalions full dress uniforms - Caton Woodville plates

[Drew-1918]

 

Collar badges worn as facing pairs (though sometimes there were exceptions). Thanks to 'Jelly Terror' for his input on this. 

 

 

Edited 9 November , 2017 by Drew-1918
Update

[Drew-1918]

Godfrey Phillips Cigarette Cards, 1908.

From my own collection. 

[Drew-1918]

On 16/06/2017 at 22:39, MBrockway said:

 

My source for that is the Army List, Drew, and I agree it is a little anomalous.

 

I think the root of this is the unit's genealogy:

 

    1860     29th Middlesex (North Middlesex) Rifle Volunteer Corps raised at St Pancras
    1880     renumbered 17th Middlesex (North Middlesex) RVC

    1881     became 4th Volunteer Battalion, The Middlesex Regiment
    1892     renumbered as 3rd VB, Middlesex Regt. on disbandment of existing 3rd VB
    1908     19th (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (St. Pancras)
    1916     re-affiliated to Middlesex Regt

 

So despite the Rifle Brigade style cap badge, they were historically affiliated to the Middlesex Regt, a redcoat regiment.

 

 

All fine and dandy ... but, Ray Westlake in his rifle volunteers book, has 17th Mddx RVC's uniform as Green with Black facings (i.e. standard RB) changing to Green with Green facings in 1904.

 

Humph!

 

Mark

 

 

 

A very nice example of a 19th London Regiment, Officers tunic. 

 

Despite the evidence staring me in the face, I still cannot quite get my head around a scarlet clad unit with Rifle Brigade cap badge. 

 

 

 

 

 

[MBrockway]

A good spot Drew and I agree, RB-style cap badge with scarlet seems very odd indeed!

Mark

 

[Drew-1918]

Cheers. It seems you were correct with your spot of scarlet with green facings. I suppose Westlake must refer to the pre-1908 days only.

Edited 30 September , 2017 by Drew-1918
Clarity

[Drew-1918]

22nd London Regiment

December 1912. 

 

 

 

From my own collection

Edited 14 November , 2017 by Drew-1918
To add source

[Drew-1918]

 

From my own collection

 

I believe this is a Rifleman of the 9th London Regiment. I think you can see this from the shoulder title, however, there are also other differences I have noticed with the QVR. I think one of Mark's aims in the OP was to try and find a way to distinguish between similar KRRC and RB style uniforms, and perhaps even between units with the same affiliations or traditions. From looking at quite a few photographs recently, it seem to me that there are a number of differences with the QVR compared to other battalions with KRRC links. In all photos I have seen, the QVR  have pockets underneath the belt, whereas  units like the Rangers do not. The Rangers history clearly states at one point that they only had pockets on the back. In additon, the number of buttons is often less with the QVR (5) and the collar only has a thin facing of scarlet at the bottom. With regard to photographs with visible button motifs, I also do not think you would ever see a QVR man with Rifle buttons, rather he would always be shown with St. George & The Dragon. They may have worn Rifle buttons in Service Dress during WW1, but I do not think this would have happened in full dress uniform pre-1914. 

 

It could be that I am merely seeing differences associated with different periods of time. For example, it might be that I have only seen post-1912 photographs of the QVR. However, it might be something to consider.

Edited 14 November , 2017 by Drew-1918
Extra detail

[Drew-1918]

 

[Guest]

My fist post and I have to say as I have just begun researching the P.O. rifles I am happy to add to the discussion of london regiments in some small way by uploading this photo.

I beleive it to be from 1910 rather than 1912 as written on the photo as I have another piece of paper stating this (it came out of the same photo frame)

He was my great grandfather and was wounded at Festubert, hence my interest in not only the P.O. rifles but the uniform and accoutrements so very happy to have found this forum.

 

Best

Chris

tilling.pdf

[Drew-1918]

Great photo, Chris. It is really wonderful to see an example of the P.O.R. full dress uniform, and It is very good of you to post one of your family photographs. 

 

Many thanks for posting.

 

Chris

[Drew-1918]

I wonder what badges they are on Chris' great grandfather's Rifle cap? Is that a crown or bugle on the cord boss with the POR badge underneath, or

is it some other combination?

 

Chris

Edited 16 November , 2017 by Drew-1918

[MBrockway]

I agree - great photo Chris and thanks for making it available.

 

I've take the liberty of re-posting in-line so Pals don't have to open the PDF file ...

 

And here's a close-up of the busby boss - looks like a crown to me rather than a strung bugle.  In the KRRC this would normally indicate an officer or senior NCO or one of the band appointments (Bugle Major, Bandmaster etc.), with lower ranks wearing the strung bugle on the boss.  That pattern may not have been followed in all the rifles family though of course, and the POR were RB-affiliated.

 

 

 

Mark

 

 

[Drew-1918]

Thanks for the reply, Mark. Interesting stuff. 

 

Chris

[Drew-1918]

24th Middlesex Rifle Volunteer Corps

c. 1900

 

The Rifleman in this photograph has a crown on the cord boss with the 24th Middlesex RV cap badge underneath it. Chris' great family photograph might be evidence that the 8th P.O.R. continued with this custom after 1908. 

 

(See also previous 8th Bn illustration for explanation of source for statement about 24th Middlesex RV ). 

 

 

Wikipedia

Edited 11 August , 2018 by Drew-1918
Added detail

[Drew-1918]

Perhaps also of note is that the 24th Middlesex Rifle Volunteer's dark blue cuffs seem to have been rendered very light by the orthochromatic film processes of the time (this would probably not happen with the 17th Bn London Rgt. black cuffs, for example).

 

Furthermore, this photograph with its coloured cuffs, is similar to the Caton-Woodville plate of the '8th Bn soldier' that Mark posted originally. It seems, therefore, to show a continuity of uniform, in some way, across the 1908 divide. 

 

It seems that these coloured cuffs are one of the few ways of distinguishing between battalions with KRR and RB traditions- when seen in black and white photographs- albeit that there the difference is often so subtle as to be almost unnoticeable. 

 

Sleeve design of parent regiment

 

This seems to be a difference going back right towards the origins of the 60th and 95th Regiments of Foot. Perhaps I am just stating the obvious, but it seems to be a characteristic mirrored in uniforms of the London Regiment, at least until 1910. It is a difference you can see between, on the one hand, the uniform of the 6th, 9th, 11th, 12th and 21st Battalions, and on the other, with the uniform of the 8th and 17th Battalions.

Edited 1 December , 2017 by Drew-1918
Clarification

[TPH258]

Hello,

 

Very much enjoyed this topic which has inspired me to join. I am trying to collect together details of the Regimental ties of the various London regiments and wondered if the various contributors here might know? Am looking for either photos or accurate descriptions wherever possible.

 

There are various and in some cases contradictory sources online, but anything that you may be able to add would be much appreciated. Hope this is not straying too far from the topic!

 

Thanks

 

TPH

[FROGSMILE]

On 09/11/2017 at 11:49, Drew-1918 said:

22nd London Regiment

December 1912. 

 

 

 

From my own collection

 

Typical Territorial, wearing a worsted cloth drummers badge only ever intended for undress frocks and never for full dress tunics as seen here.

[FROGSMILE]

On 26/11/2017 at 06:20, Drew-1918 said:

Perhaps also of note is that the 24th Middlesex Rifle Volunteer's dark blue cuffs seem to have been rendered very light by the orthochromatic film processes of the time (this would probably not happen with the 17th Bn London Rgt. black cuffs, for example).

 

Furthermore, this photograph with its coloured cuffs, is similar to the Caton-Woodville plate of the '8th Bn soldier' that Mark posted originally. It seems, therefore, to show a continuity of uniform, in some way, across the 1908 divide. 

 

It seems that these coloured cuffs are one of the few ways of distinguishing between battalions with KRR and RB traditions- when seen in black and white photographs- albeit that there the difference is often so subtle as to be almost unnoticeable. 

 

Sleeve design of parent regiment

 

This seems to be a difference going back right towards the origins of the 60th and 95th Regiments of Foot. Perhaps I am just stating the obvious, but it seems to be a characteristic mirrored in uniforms of the London Regiment, at least until 1910. It is a difference you can see between, on the one hand, the uniform of the 6th, 9th, 11th, 12th and 21st Battalions, and on the other, with the uniform of the 8th and 17th Battalions.

 

I think that what you say is bang on Drew, and interestingly it applies equally to the many Colonial units, including especially Gurkhas that adopted the Rifles mode of dress.  All of them largely followed either the 60th (as it was often persistently referred to) or Rifle Brigade (ex 95th) style, albeit that at least one, the 7th Gurkhas, departed from this and followed the style of the Scottish Rifles.

Edited 24 April , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Drew-1918]

On 4/24/2018 at 00:10, TPH258 said:

Hello,

 

Very much enjoyed this topic which has inspired me to join. I am trying to collect together details of the Regimental ties of the various London regiments and wondered if the various contributors here might know? Am looking for either photos or accurate descriptions wherever possible.

 

There are various and in some cases contradictory sources online, but anything that you may be able to add would be much appreciated. Hope this is not straying too far from the topic!

 

Thanks

 

TPH

 

Hello,

Have you seen the following Churchman's Cigarette cards? Apologies if you have. I was not sure what online research you have done.

 

Regards,

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Drew-1918]

On 4/24/2018 at 02:47, FROGSMILE said:

 

Typical Territorial, wearing a worsted cloth drummers badge only ever intended for undress frocks and never for full dress tunics as seen here.

 

On 4/24/2018 at 03:34, FROGSMILE said:

 

I think that what you say is bang on Drew, and interestingly it applies equally to the many Colonial units, including especially Gurkhas that adopted the Rifles mode of dress.  All of them largely followed either the 60th (as it was often persistently referred to) or Rifle Brigade (ex 95th) style, albeit that at least one, the 7th Gurkhas, departed from this and followed the style of the Scottish Rifles.

 

Many thanks for this information. I find the comparison with colonial units particularly interesting. 

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, Drew-1918 said:

 

 

Many thanks for this information. I find the comparison with colonial units particularly interesting. 

 

(Imperial) Indian Army Dress Regulations list all the regiments with the Rifles mode of dress.  There are reprints by Ray Westlake Publications.

[TPH258]

On 25/04/2018 at 14:45, Drew-1918 said:

 

Hello,

Have you seen the following Churchman's Cigarette cards? Apologies if you have. I was not sure what online research you have done.

 

Regards,

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Chris,

 

I have, and have used them to confirm the colours quoted on several UK and US tailors/tie sellers who are often unreliable in their rendition of old colours. 

 

To make it easier (should have done this in first post, apologies), I think these are correct:

 

You can see that 4th and 17th appear as the same (both quoted from different sources), I have the colours but not the arrangement for 16th and 21st, and am missing 6, 15, 19, 24, and 25. Ignore 26 and 27 (for the same reasons covered elsewhere in this thread).

 

Any information grateful received.

 

Thanks to all.

[Drew-1918]

On 4/25/2018 at 23:31, FROGSMILE said:

 

(Imperial) Indian Army Dress Regulations list all the regiments with the Rifles mode of dress.  There are reprints by Ray Westlake Publications.

Many thanks for this. I will investigate.

 

Chris

[Drew-1918]

On 4/27/2018 at 20:47, TPH258 said:

You can see that 4th and 17th appear as the same (both quoted from different sources), I have the colours but not the arrangement for 16th and 21st, and am missing 6, 15, 19, 24, and 25. Ignore 26 and 27 (for the same reasons covered elsewhere in this thread).

 

Any information grateful received.

 

Thanks to all.

 

Very interesting. Thanks for posting. If I come across anything, I will update.

 

[Drew-1918]

An unknown Rfn. in walking-out dress. Believed to be 17th Bn. London Regiment. 

Photo by Frederick G. Paget, 195 High Road, Ilford. 

 

I think it might just be possible to see the coloured black cuff in this photograph, though against the Rifle green of the rest of the sleeve it is almost indistinguishable. In photographs taken outside with more light, it is often possible to distinguish between the two. 

 

 

The following is from an interwar recruitment poster (note black cuff):

Wikipedia

 

Edited 18 May , 2018 by Drew-1918