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Remembered Today:

London Regt battalions full dress uniforms - Caton Woodville plates


MBrockway

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I'll have a dig around! 

 

Not wanting to distract from the main point of the thread, but since it was mentioned- a few close ups of the RA chap. In my ignorance, did wonder if he was H.A.C., but clearly not from the close up of the cap badge.

 

 

Cap badge.jpg

cuff.jpg

Edited by Drew-1918
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... Also, not the full dress uniform, but the same group of men with different caps. 

5th Londs.jpg

Edited by Drew-1918
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No gunner there - the soldiers are all riflemen!  Is the chap on the rightmost the erstwhile gunner in the studio shot?

 

Nice comparison of the 5/LRB in SD drab and full dress.  Like Sepoy's photo of the QWR's very useful!  It confirms, for example, that the London Rifle Brigade wore blackened buttons in SD.

 

Did 5/LRB drop the feathered shako in favour of the peaked cap1 ?  Date?  Or is this an intermediate dress order?

 

1(unsure of the correct terminology of a Service Cap not in khaki drab!)

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Me neither (re: service cap not drab).

 

I think the two photos are almost exactly contemporary, so isn't it just simply a more practical alternative to wear when actually 'walking out'? In another shot they are wearing this dress in camp! Perhaps this type of dress uniform is simply a more practical style than, for example, the other rifles regiments. Please excuse my lack of knowledge over correct terms.

 

 I'm sorry, in the first 5th Londons photograph I posted, wasn't it concluded that the gentleman with 8 buttons was R.A.?

Edited by Drew-1918
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Since I mentioned it... 

 

If not the actual dress uniform, it is at least of the same style of tunic etc. A complete mix and match! 

5th Londs in camp.jpg

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In Westlake & Chappell's British Territorial Units 1914-18, there is a picture of a 2nd London RF private wearing a kind of full dress service cap with full dress uniform, but he is also holding his full dress fur cap. I am not sure if I can post the image here or not. 

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Drew,

I think you're right.  The shako (or rifle busby or Fusilier bearskin) was used in the most formal order of dress, while there was an intermediate order of dress that used a smarter 'full dress' version of the service cap, and then less formal still there was the khaki drab SD.

 

Can a Pal with better knowledge of the subject give us the correct contemporary terms for these orders of dress?

 

Also the 'full dress' version of the service cap?

 

I hate being wrong on 'naming of parts'!

 

Mark

 

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The current Rifles Dress Guidance gives ...

No 1 Dress - Temperate ceremonial: Full dress Parade Wear (Greens ... in The Rifles, Blues elsewhere!)
No 2 Dress - Temperate parade: based on Service Dress (Future Army Dress FAD)
No 3 Dress - Warm weather ceremonial: White tropical Parade Wear
No 4 Dress - Warm weather Service Dress: warm version of No 2 Dress (Officers & some senior WO's ONLY)
-
No 6 Dress - Warm weather parade: Bush jacket
No 7 Dress - Warm weather barrack dress (tropical shirt & trousers)
-
-
No 10 Dress - Temperate Mess dress
No 11 Dress - Warm weather Mess dress: Tropical Mess kit
-
No 13 Dress - Winter barrack dress (Pullover order)
No 14 Dress - Summer Barrack Dress (Shirt Sleeve Order)
Combat PCS-CU jacket and MTP shirt can be used in the above barrack dress orders

Greatcoat Dress - Full dress Parade wear, principally Household & Public duties
Often worn without tunic due to close fit.
Combat Dress - field use
Barrack Dress Work Wear - fatigues etc

 

Can someone give us the 1908-1919 equivalents?  :thumbsup:

 

Mark

 

 

Edited by MBrockway
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Regarding the Gunner.  Mark is happy to swerve away a bit from the thread subject,

 

The nine button (not eight as Muerrisch queried) tunic is fine, example attached.  The bit that I query is the fact that he is wearing the crossed gun barrels with crown above of a man qualified as an Assistant Instructor in Gunnery at the School of Gunnery at Shoeburyness (at that time).  He has no badges of rank and I am not happy with the idea that a gunner would hold that qualification, he should be at least a serjeant  (all from the VR Regs - thanks Mark) and he doesn't look grizzled enough!.   

 

However, could we be down in the mire of the vagaries olunteers again and the badge was being used illegally to indicate some other qualification?  Or, as it may be him in civvies in the other pic, did the photographer have a selection of dubious uniforms about the place and he dressed up?

 

Wee bit personal this having qualified myself in the 60s (1960s that is) and served at Shoeburyness although long after the School of Gunnery left there!.

 

Any thoughts?

 

MaxD

 

 

tunic.jpg

Edited by MaxD
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Starting to see quite a few pics of men in camp with this 'intermediate' dress uniform (Undress?), now that I have an eye out for it. I know I should leave it to someone with more knowledge, but I wonder if 'dress forage cap' is suitable. We shall see and I will leave the speculation there. 
Very interesting stuff from the current rifles. Really curious to hear the terms contemporary with our field of study. 
 
Max,
I think the man in civvies appears as such in both photos. The RA man only appears in the first photo I posted. I am inclined to think it was the vagaries of the volunteers which you referred to. However, perhaps I am not quite fully getting your point about the qualification. If not, apologies. I should add that I think this 'family' were quite a posh lot. I know it shouldn't, but could that have made a difference, back then?
Cheers,
 
Chris
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1 hour ago, MaxD said:

<snip>

The bit that I query is the fact that he is wearing the crossed gun barrels with crown above of a man qualified as an Assistant Instructor in Gunnery at the School of Gunnery at Shoeburyness (at that time).  He has no badges of rank and I am not happy with the idea that a gunner would hold that qualification, he should be at least a serjeant  (all from the VR Regs - thanks Mark) and he doesn't look grizzled enough!.   

 

<snip>

MaxD

Cuff 00 - Copy.jpg

David's book has Crossed Guns with Crown as a prize badge for 1st Class Battery Gunnery Prize.

 

He has an Appointment badge of Crossed Guns with Crown and Grenade for Assistant Instructor, Gunnery & Others, and that's in the 1914 CR's.  Earlier CR's etc., drop the Assistant bit.

 

If he spots this, he may come on and comment :thumbsup:

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Pal Frogsmile has posted this on another Forum and in a topic where David was also active ...

 

Quote

The style of gun was adopted in 1898.  If in gm, the crowns or stars were separate, whereas bullion and worsted were combined.  Nothing on sizes, I am afraid, but hopefully you can estimate from the photos.  The prize battery badge was in 3 classes.  1st Class was guns and crown, 2nd class guns and star and 3rd class guns alone.  Crowns were Victorian initially and then Tudor.

 

I can't comment - miles off rifles!  :P

 

The above are the Prize badges, but there does seem to have been Appointment badges along the same lines.

 

AO 309 of 1918 gives under WO Class II, Crown and Crossed Guns as Battery or Company Serjeant-Major Instructor in Gunnery.  The Grenade is only mentioned for WO Instructors in the Royal Engineers.

 

AO 309/1918 cancelled AO 174 of 1915.  It could be useful to see what that says.

Edited by MBrockway
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I am in awe of your combined expertise!  

 

47 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

David's book has Crossed Guns with Crown as a prize badge for 1st Class Battery Gunnery Prize

 

That would be it, Frogsmile's post helps confirm it as the Volunteers striking again with their desire to have badges for everything!

 

1 hour ago, Drew-1918 said:
I should add that I think this 'family' were quite a posh lot. I know it shouldn't, but could that have made a difference, back then?
Cheers,

 

Unless, dare I say it, their poshness (and presumably wealth) made it possible for the judges to look kindly upon their efforts in the competition fr the battery gunnery prize.

 

Content now, back to the leaf raking, thank you all.

 

MaxD

 

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3 hours ago, MaxD said:

That would be it, Frogsmile's post helps confirm it as the Volunteers striking again with their desire to have badges for everything!

MaxD

 

Frogsmile's post quoted above refers to Regular RA.

 

As a gunner yourself, you're better placed than I to comment whether "badges for everything" extends to the regular service!  :D

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Could you give me a link to the Frogsmile's post - just want to be sure he is referring to artillery crossed guns or crossed machine guns (as in Machine Gun Corps).   Rubbish, just looked at the date!!

 

A link would still be appreciated.

 

MaxD

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Here's the badge from Frogsmile's post.  I hope he doesn't mind me posting it here.  It's the SD Worsted version.  Your photo will be the smarter gilt version with separate crown and guns of course.

 

Crossed Guns & Crown prize badge (Frogsmile).jpgCuff 00 - Copy.jpg

[Copyright Pal Frogsmile]

Edited by MBrockway
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Thank you Mark, identical to the Assistant Instructor in Gunnery's  badge worn on both sleeves, interesting to learn about its other use..  More to add to my meagre knowledge store.  I belong to the other forum and have quickly scanned what is there so may look at this at leisure later.

 

I'll sign off this thread now thanks.

 

MaxD

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Thanks very much for the information and effort in thinking about it and in tracking it all down. Also for entertaining the diversion. 

 

Do any of the riflemen from the plates still require confirmation as to their battalions? 

 

Chris

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16 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

Thanks very much for the information and effort in thinking about it and in tracking it all down. Also for entertaining the diversion. 

 

Do any of the riflemen from the plates still require confirmation as to their battalions? 

 

Chris

Firstly a big thanks for everyone who's helping with this mini-project!

 

Perhaps I'm being ambitious, and it's definitely expanding the topic beyond the Caton Woodville plates, but it would be a fantastic LR reference resource if we could have a colour drawing AND photo of EVERY battalion!  My aspiration is for this to end up similar to Chris MacDonald's Uniform I-Spy guides.  I will eventually edit the first post to act as a hyperlinked index so each battalion's material can be reached easily.

 

An exception might be those battalions where differences were zero (?1st to 4th LR (Royal Fusiliers)?) or too small to show up in a typical photo (e.g. regimental buttons).  Even then, it would be very useful to have those subtleties noted.

 

I have updated the battalion list to show our progress.  Those battalions we have confirmed and illustrated with drawings or drawings AND photos are now marked as shown left.

_______________________________________________________

Unit  Tunic Facings
1st London Division
1st (City of) London Brigade    
1/LR (Royal Fusiliers)  Scarlet Blue
2/LR (Royal Fusiliers)  Scarlet Blue
3/LR (Royal Fusiliers)  Scarlet Blue
4/LR (Royal Fusiliers)  Scarlet Blue
2nd (City of) London Brigade    
5/LR (London Rifle Brigade)  Rifle Green Scarlet
6/LR (City of London Rifles)  Rifle Green Scarlet
7/LR Scarlet Buff
8/LR (Post Office Rifles)  Rifle Green Blue
3rd (County of) London Brigade    
9/LR (Queen Victoria's) Rifle Green Scarlet
10/LR (Paddington Rifles); disbanded 1912  Rifle Green Black
10/LR (Hackney)  Scarlet White
11/LR (Finsbury Rifles)  Rifle Green Scarlet
12/LR (The Rangers)  Rifle Green Scarlet
2nd London Division
4th (County of) London Brigade    
13/LR (Kensington)  Elcho grey Scarlet
14/LR (London Scottish)  Hodden Grey Blue
15/LR (Civil Service Rifles)  Elcho grey Blue
16/LR (Queen's Westminster Rifles)  Elcho grey Scarlet
5th (County of) London Brigade    
17/LR (Poplar and Stepney Rifles)  Rifle Green Black
18/LR (London Irish Rifles) Rifle Green Light green
19/LR (St. Pancras)  Scarlet Green
20/LR (Blackheath and Woolwich)  Scarlet Black
6th (County of) London Brigade    
21/LR (First Surrey Rifles)  Rifle Green Scarlet
22/LR (Queen's)  Scarlet Blue
23/LR Scarlet White
24/LR (Queen's)  Scarlet Blue
Unbrigaded (County of London)     
25th Cyclist Bn., London Regiment.  Elcho grey Scarlet
28/LR (Artists Rifles) Elcho grey White

_______________________________________________________

 

By my reckoning, there are still two of the Caton Woodville plates to confirm, but the chap in khaki drab SD may be impossible to do more than narrow down to the remaining black buttoned bns.  The other is the chap in the rifle busby tentatively ID-ed as 17/LR (Poplar & Stepney Rifles).  I've posted the plates again below the table.

 

Of the rest, we could use  ...

 

Colour drawings and photos ...

9/LR (Queen Victoria's)
10/LR (Paddington Rifles); disbanded 1912
10/LR (Hackney)
11/LR (Finsbury Rifles)
13/LR (Kensington)
19/LR (St. Pancras)
20/LR (Blackheath and Woolwich)
21/LR (First Surrey Rifles)
22/LR (Queen's)
24/LR (Queen's)
25/LR (Cyclist)

 

Photos only ...

1/LR (Royal Fusiliers)
6/LR (City of London Rifles)
7/LR "Shiny Seventh"
8/LR (Post Office Rifles)
12/LR (The Rangers)

14/LR (London Scottish) - OR photo from Sepoy.  Officer still needed.
18/LR (London Irish Rifles)

23/LR

28/LR (Artists Rifles)

 

Plus a couple of further loose ends ...

2, 3 & 4/LR (Royal Fusiliers) - is their full dress uniform identical to 1/LR?

Info on the tunic with breast pockets seen both in Elcho grey and rifle green (in e.g. CSR, QWR and LRB photos) ?

 

This aspiration is unlikely to be 100% achieved: colour drawings are especially thin on the ground, but no harm in aiming high eh?  :thumbsup:

 

 

 

Here are the two outstanding plates ...

 

On 29/10/2016 at 10:57, MBrockway said:

 

Returning to the left hand chap, khaki SD with blackened buttons and a curved TF shoulder title don't really help us much.

 

The QWR's were in 2nd Division where the Artists' Rifles were also attached unbrigaded as divisional army troops.  We could perhaps hazard a guess that this unit is also 2nd Div.

 

19th, 20th, 22nd, 23rd and 24th Londons were all redcoats, so would not have worn blackened rifles buttons.

 

In 2nd Div that leaves 17/LR (Poplar and Stepney Rifles) and 21/LR (First Surrey Rifles), but if we widened our net to 1st Div, we would need to include 9/LR (QVR's), 11/LR (Finsbury Rifles) and 12/LR (The Rangers) who were all brigaded together in 3rd Bde and all of whom wore blackened buttons.  If he's not one of those last three, then 3rd Bde are not represented in the plates at all, which might seem odd.

 

I'm not sure we'll resolve this chap to be honest :blush:

 

large.580ea05096ef2_LondonRegiment02aCou

 

I'm very unsure :wacko: of this last one.  Rifle Green tunic, but looking more like a patrol jacket than a rifles tunic, and no sign of the KRRC-style scarlet cuffs or plume that one would expect for the QVR, The Rangers or the Finsbury Rifles.  There's also an unusual shape to the rifle busby, looks more rounded, rather like an artillery busby without a bag, though I have seen this shape used in Canadian rifle units. 

 

My best guess therefore is ...

 

17/LR (Poplar and Stepney Rifles)

large.580ea04a8f4f7_LondonRegiment03dCou

 

I did wonder about possibly 10/LR (Paddington Rifles) (disbanded 1912 - but these plates date from 1910), but they were in the 1st London Division and the other three units in this plate are all from 2nd London Division.

 

I also considered 21/LR (First Surrey Rifles).  They were in 2nd Div and wore rifle green, but with scarlet facings.  They were affiliated to the East Surreys though, so I do not have as much info on them as I do on the KRRC and RB affiliated units.  Their adjutant at the outbreak of the war was Captain Henry KENNEDY, 1/KRRC, who became their CO just before they went out to the Front, so strong links to the 60th despite the formal affiliation to the East Surreys.

_________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

 

 

Edited by MBrockway
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A fantastic idea, and it would indeed be great to have such a resource on the GWF.

 

Further to my post yesterday on the 2nd Bn London Rgt, from Westlake & Chappell- they go on to say, "...In its blue-faced scarlet uniforms, the Battalion is typical of many that appeared much the same as their parent regiments, being only identified in most cases by the designation worn on the shoulder strap...". Perhaps a confirmation of sorts that there were no differences between the first 4 battalions. Their "2nd London" illustration is identical to the "1st London" ones we have. 

 

I am working on getting a 9th London photograph, but it will be an officer (not that Im saying that's a problem:rolleyes:, just that I suppose we would need OR as well?). 

 

Chris

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Drew-1918 said:

I am working on getting a 9th London photograph, but it will be an officer (not that Im saying that's a problem:rolleyes:, just that I suppose we would need OR as well?). 

 

Chris

 

 

Cripes!  You're of course quite right.  Full dress officers AND OR's would be the right way to go, but we've just doubled the project - LOL!

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On 29/10/2016 at 10:57, MBrockway said:

14/LR (London Scottish)

large.580ea049b55bf_LondonRegiment03cCou

 

 


Here is a photo of a member of the 14th (County of London) Battalion (London Scottish).

Sepoy

A London-scottish.jpg

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Major Thomas Prior Lees, 1-9th Bn. London Regiment, Killed in Action 21st April 1915.

 

 

5a1f6ed8deeb3_MajorLeesB(2).jpg.6c443c45dee02240bbeba12056654681.jpg

Edited by Drew-1918
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