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875473 BDR John Scales


John Scales
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Hi John,

The number you quote above falls in the range allocated  to the E Anglian Brigade, Royal Field Artillery(territorial)

Service records survive for some others such as 875472 Chase who is shown as 1/1 East Anglian Bde and then became 272 Brigade RFA. Worth looking at these 'neighbouring' of records to see if they parallel your GF's career.

 

What made you say Horse Artillery? I see his Medal Index Card says he was also Royal Garrison Artillery.

 

Charlie962

 

 

Edited by charlie962
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There is a service record for 880837 Chew who was renumbered to 341237 on transfer from RFA to RGA London AA Defence in 1918. Worth a look at his record to see how a man can transfer from Field to Garrison Artillery.

 

All this is in absence of a Service record for your GF. You have to do some guessing. Do you have any other history for him?

 

Charlie962

Edited by charlie962
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10 hours ago, charlie962 said:

There is a service record for 880837 Chew who was renumbered to 341237 on transfer from RFA to RGA London AA Defence in 1918. Worth a look at his record to see how a man can transfer from Field to Garrison Artillery.

 

All this is in absence of a Service record for your GF. You have to do some guessing. Do you have any other history for him?

 

Charlie962

Hi Charlie,

 

Thanks for your response.  I believe my father (who has past) thought he was in the Royal Horse Artillery.  The E Anglian Brigade, Royal Field Artillery(territorial) makes sense as he was from Great Yarmouth (Norfolk).  Sadly I have one photo and his medals

John Scales (Grandfather)-min.jpg

Edited by John Sclaes
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Hi John,

 

Welcome to the Forum. I've just had a quick look at some Medal Index Cards for others with similar numbers.

 

George W Lovick  Royal Field Artillery    1544, 875470
Arthur Cushings Royal Field Artillery, 5C Res, Brigade 875471
Frederick H Chase Royal Field Artillery 1546, 875472
John Scales Royal Artillery, Royal Garrison Artillery  875473, 341235
George H Wright Royal Field Artillery    1548, 875474
Albert Dent Royal Field Artillery    1549, 875475
Bertram S Clayton Royal Field Artillery    1550, 875476
George Lemmon Royal Field Artillery    1551, 875477

 

Those that have an earlier 4 figure number disembarked in France on November 16, 1915 and qualified for the 1914-15 Star. This ties in with them being in 1/1st East Anglian Brigade (272nd Brigade RFA) as Charlie has mentioned. However, your grandfather does not appear to have this medal and his earlier number of 1547 doesn't appear either. As renumbering occurred in early 1917, it follows that he did not serve overseas until then. He would have been in the 2nd or 3rd Lines of the 1st East Anglian Brigade which were based at home in England but provided drafts for the 1st line. 272nd Brigade RFA served in Egypt from February 1916 but in actual fact he could have been posted anywhere once given his six figure number which was retained until he joined the RGA in 1918. He could easily have been posted to a Royal Horse Artillery in France or Egypt but without a surviving service record or other evidence it is impossible to tell. Incidentally, the enlistment dates for those above all seem to be as volunteers in early November 1914.

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Thanks David,

 

I assume to have received the medals he would have had to have served overseas in a t war zone?  Is this correct?

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David, you are one of the real experts on this subject.

I note that there are several service records surviving in the 3412?? series which seem to show transfers into RGA (Essex&Suffolk)Territorials in July/Aug 1918.

They come sometimes from RFA but 2 come from infantry. They seem to have been posted to UK Anti Aircraft Defence as a result of previous injuries which perhaps rendered them unsuitable for further service abroad?

John, was your GF wounded in 1917 ?

Charlie962

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Charlie,

 

I haven't looked closely at the RGA numbers, only enough to determine it was indeed Anti Aircraft Defence in 1918. Is the unit they are all posted to connected to the Essex & Suffolk RGA or is it just Regular RGA (i.e. different AA units)? I don't know enough about this side of the artillery but if it is like the RFA it may just be that their transfer was handled by Warley Record Office. Also anyone classified in Category C(i) would be posted to a Garrison or Provision unit at Home.

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7 hours ago, David Porter said:

 

 

Those that have an earlier 4 figure number disembarked in France on November 16, 1915 and qualified for the 1914-15 Star. This ties in with them being in 1/1st East Anglian Brigade (272nd Brigade RFA) as Charlie has mentioned. However, your grandfather does not appear to have this medal and his earlier number of 1547 doesn't appear either. As renumbering occurred in early 1917, it follows that he did not serve overseas until then.

 

Hi David (and others)

 

Perhaps if I may, just a general caution based on my meagre experience looking at TF men's records (including TF artillery).

 

I have seen plenty of TF records for men with VM/BWM medals awarded having just their 6-digit TF re-numbers on them even though they went overseas well before the TF re-numbering took effect. So I would tentatively suggest it does not necessarily follow that a man (with just a 6-digit number on his VM/BWM MIC/medal roll/medal) was sent overseas until after re-numbering occurred in early 1917. Of course, if he was not entitled to a 1914-1915 Star, then one at least knows he must have gone after the cut-off date (on or after 01/01/1916) for that medal.

 

Example: William J Williams RGA TF 308075 (MIC and Medal Roll). His service records show his earlier number was 290 and he landed in France on 8th February 1916.

 

 

Regards

 

Russ

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1 minute ago, RussT said:

 

Hi David (and others)

 

Perhaps if I may, just a general caution based on my meagre experience looking at TF men's records (including TF artillery).

 

I have seen plenty of TF records for men with VM/BWM medals awarded having just their 6-digit TF re-numbers on them even though they went overseas well before the TF re-numbering took effect. So I would tentatively suggest it does not necessarily follow that a man (with just a 6-digit number on his VM/BWM MIC/medal roll/medal) was sent overseas until after re-numbering occurred in early 1917. Of course, if he was not entitled to a 1914-1915 Star, then one at least knows he must have gone after the cut-off date (on or after 01/01/1916) for that medal.

 

Example: William J Williams RGA TF 308075 (MIC and Medal Roll). His service records show his earlier number was 290 and he landed in France on 8th February 1916.

 

 

Regards

 

Russ

I'd agree with Russ - I've seen similar cases where the earlier T.F. number has been absent from records, with the associated difficulties.

Some 6 digit numbers do though appear on records dated in late 1916 rather than early 1917.

 

Craig

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John, that just links to the National Archives catalogue entry for the microfilm of records that survived the burning in WW2. These records have been digitized and are available on Ancestry, Findmypast or at the NA itself - if you click on "Details" it tells you this. I've looked on Findmypast and your grandfather's record has not survived in this series or the so called Pension series.

 

Russ and Craig, thanks for the clarification - call that a senior moment. I have been looking through a bunch of records lately where the earlier number was very useful in filling a gap. Of course, it can follow that there was an overseas date in 1916 and frustrating if that is left off the medal index card. From November 22, 1916 the TF record offices made provisional assignment of the new six figure numbers for the artillery, but the process was not completed until February 15, 1917 as several cross checks had to be made. This was due to a lot of changes happening or having happened and the record offices being slow to catch up with them.

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Just to recap on my previous post re RGA numbers, there is reference for most of the following of "compulsory Trf to RGA..... auth WO letter 3938 AG6 3/7/18" (or memo similar date)

 

Garrison Artillery service nos 3412??

                              Trf>RGA                       initially to:

341215  Wilkinson 24Aug18                       AA DefenceCmdDover                           ex RFA
341219  Holmes     6Aug18 Luton              AA CentLondonCmnd gassed1917        ex RFA
341223  Pike         1Jul18   Swanage         AA DefenceCommand gassed1917        ex RFA
341231  Burrell    21Aug18 Edinburgh       AA Edinburgh then 4Depot,Ripon          ex Bedfords/ScotRifles
341234  Slater    14Aug18 Edinburgh        AA Reserve                                            ex Gloucesters
341235  Scales                                 ???????????????
341237  Chew     30Aug18 HighWycombe AA CentLondonCmnd                              ex RFA 3/2EAnglian, C4ResBde
341251  Clark     20Nov18  Catterick         2SgArtyResBde    gassed 1917                     ex RFA

 

Since all the above come from Pension Claims of course they are going to have been wounded or impaired. There are quite a number of others in this sequence with SWBs but no Service Record. They are marked on FMP as RGA Essex&Suffolk. I cannot check further if they were AA.   So I suggest it is most probable that this range was allocated to Compulsory transfers of men from other units no longer fit to serve abroad. All seem to end up in AA units.(except 341251 ?!)

 

So,as others have cautioned above, indicative but not conclusive. May give a trail to follow up. Good luck, John

 

Charlie962

 

            

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The plot thickens.  I have found his service record on ansestry  can any provide explaination on differing corp.

http://person.ancestry.com.au/tree/104924523/person/230042814515/facts.

 

 

http://interactive.ancestry.com.au/1219/30600_192270-00086/1761208?backurl=http://person.ancestry.com.au/tree/104924523/person/230042814515/facts/citation/760150340060/edit/record

 

 

Medal card (I checked engraving on medals) is definately his and so is the service record.

Edited by John Scales
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John,

 

Your links are not useful to anyone with an Ancestry UK subscription as your subscription appears to be Australian

If this is someones tree then caution is required for the information contained therein.

Anyone adding information to trees on Ancestry may have made a genuine mistake.

 

Perhaps you could provide more details of what you have found.

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