Bernard Egram - Sergeant-Major in the Army Service Corps (ASC), Service #44252

[Mark Salkeld]

Hi

I've been trying to find information on a Bernard Egram who was a Sergeant-Major in the Army Service Corps (ASC). 

He was born circa 1887 in Poplar, London and up until 1918 lived at Bow Road. 

I found a two page Attestation document for Bernard at Ancestry which states that he was recruited on 19^th May 1916, appointed Acting Staff Sergeant on the same day, and then discharged (for having been irregularly enlisted) on 26^th October 1916.

He married Elsie Turnbull (my Great Grand Aunt) on 15^th of June 1917 at The Parish Church of St. Mary, Stratford Bow in Tower Hamlets, London.  On the marriage record (available at Ancestry), Bernard indicated his occupation as ‘Sergeant Major ASC’.  Given that Bernard was discharged the previous year for having been irregularly enlisted, could he have actually been a Sergeant Major in June 1917?

After appearing in the 1918 London Electoral Register, Bernard seems to literally disappear from the face of the earth.  Following 1918, I've been unable to find a death record or any other trace of Bernard - I suspect that he may have changed his name?

Sadly, Elsie was admitted to the Chelsie Union Workhouse in 1921 and, in 1924, died from Tuberculosis at the Horton Mental Hospital.  Bernard is not mentioned on the death certificate.

Can anyone help solve the mystery of Bernard Egram?

Any help anyone can provide would be greately appreciated.

Kind regards

 

Mark

[ss002d6252]

Quote

Given that Bernard was discharged the previous year for having been irregularly enlisted, could he have actually been a Sergeant Major in June 1917?

If a man had the right skills or experience he could be recruited in to a specific role - men experienced enough to be appointed as a Sergeant Major on enlistment would clearly have some welcome skills.

Craig

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

His name appears in the London Gazette January 29 1918 , p1462, being granted Letters of Administration for the estate of his recently deceased father, James:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30501/page/1462/data.pdf

 

Not much else on him is there?

Edited 13 October , 2016 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[johnboy]

If you look at his service record it gives the Kings Regulation under which he was discharged. Sorry, I don't know the reason, but hopefully someone will. 

[ss002d6252]

Just now, johnboy said:

If you look at his service record it gives the Kings Regulation under which he was discharged. Sorry, I don't know the reason, but hopefully someone will. 

It seems to have been a technical issue regarding his attestation - http://www.military-researcher.co.uk/KingsRegs1912/para-2.html

 

He'd have been eligible for conscription so his ASC was either a new voluntary enlistment or he was conscripted.

 

Craig

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

The surname appears to be extinct in England and Wales.

He  seems to be the last registered male EGRAM ever.

Presumably therefore he is :

B.Egram also ASC,

MIC

Pte 44252, "Enquires whether Mentioned in Despatches".

Edited 13 October , 2016 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[johnboy]

18 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

It seems to have been a technical issue regarding his attestation - http://www.military-researcher.co.uk/KingsRegs1912/para-2.html

 

He'd have been eligible for conscription so his ASC was either a new voluntary enlistment or he was conscripted.

 

Craig

 

 

Could it have anything to do with the fact that he enlisted for UK service only?

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, johnboy said:

 

 

Could it have anything to do with the fact that he enlisted for UK service only?

Possibly - that was not an enlistment option post MSA for anyone, as far as I'm aware.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

19 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

The surname appears to be extinct in England and Wales.

He  seems to be the last registered male EGRAM ever.

Presumably therefore he is :

B.Egram also ASC,

MIC

Pte 44252, "Enquires whether Mentioned in Despatches".

 

That number appears to date from around May 1916 so seems to be his original number by date but the enlistment form has a number (partially missing) ending 9183.

 

Curiously there's also RM Labour Corps medal roll entry for a Bernard Egram - Deal/15822/S

 

Craig

Edited 13 October , 2016 by ss002d6252

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

4 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

 

That number appears to date from around May 1916 so seems to be his original number by date but the enlistment form has a number (partially missing) ending 9183.

 

Curiously there's also RM Labour Corps medal roll entry for a Bernard Egram - Deal/15822/S

 

Craig

As I said.

Ther is only one family of  Egrams on the censuses from 1881 on (Ancestry list more-but they've mis transcribed  Ograms from Yorkshire.

Apart from a Benjamin Egram (b1861) there is no other B. Egram, and Benjamin would have been  53 at the outbreak of war, and almost certainly not going to be a private in the ASC.

It's unusual to be able to say 'It must be him', but...'It must be him!'

Edited 13 October , 2016 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[ss002d6252]

The RM LC man - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16189737

 

Quote

Bernard Egram, born: Bow, London; Age at attestation: 42; Attested: London; Joined in: 1918; Discharge reason: Demobilised; Discharge year: 1919.

 

Craig

[kenf48]

The key to the rank is probably that he was recruited as a 'Supervisor' in the ASC Forage Department at Bow Granary. If you look at the second page of the record you will see the terms of service in the Forage Department which shows Supervisors are given an equivalency of Staff Sergeant.

 

The family business was a tobacconist, which is the occupation given in the probate calendar on the occasion of his father's death in December 1917, and in the 1911 Census (tobacconist assistant).

 

Why he was appointed a supervisor is a mystery but did he continue to work there after discharge and gave himself the equivalency on the marriage certificate?

 

Ken

[Mark Salkeld]

3 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

As I said.

Ther is only one family of  Egrams on the censuses from 1881 on (Ancestry list more-but they've mis transcribed  Ograms from Yorkshire.

Apart from a Benjamin Egram (b1861) there is no other B. Egram, and Benjamin would have been  53 at the outbreak of war, and almost certainly not going to be a private in the ASC.

It's unusual to be able to say 'It must be him', but...'It must be him!'

 

Hi

 

Bernard appears in the 1901 and 1911 Census.  In 1911, he is living with his parents, James and Harriet Egram, his brother, James Egram Junior, and his Grandfather, also called James Egram.  The census also indicates that he is 23 years old and a Tobacconist's Assistant.

 

I found his brother, James, living in Essex in the 1939 Register.  He married a Maud Knowles and they had a child called James. 

 

James died about Feb 1963 aged 76 in Totnes, Devon, England. 

 

Kind regards

 

Mark

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

4 minutes ago, Mark Salkeld said:

I found his brother, James, living in Essex in the 1939 Register.  He married a Maud Knowles and they had a child called James. 

Strange that that child's birth isn't registered under 'Egram'?

[ss002d6252]

18 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

As I said.

Ther is only one family of  Egrams on the censuses from 1881 on (Ancestry list more-but they've mis transcribed  Ograms from Yorkshire.

Apart from a Benjamin Egram (b1861) there is no other B. Egram, and Benjamin would have been  53 at the outbreak of war, and almost certainly not going to be a private in the ASC.

It's unusual to be able to say 'It must be him', but...'It must be him!'

It is but who is the RMLC man aged 42 in 1918 - he doesn't seem to exist (unless he was born outside E&W).

Craig

[johnboy]

I find it strange that his occupation seems more suited to a clerk or infantry man. It appears that the Forage corps were for handling goods and they were paid on a bonus basis as to how much they shifted.

[Mark Salkeld]

1 minute ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Strange that that child's birth isn't registered under 'Egram'?

Hi

 

Yes, very stange.  I did find marraige for him but nothing else - James Egram and Agnes MacFarlane were married about May 1955 in Newton Abbot, Devon, England.

 

Mark

[Mark Salkeld]

This is a photo of Bernard sent from Elsie to my Great Grandfather Robert.  Maybe the unform can provide some insight?

 

Mark

[johnboy]

Looks like ASC badge. Also might be wearing spurs?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Certainly looks like an ASC cap badge.

Agree spurs

And  staff sargeant insignia?

 

Edited 13 October , 2016 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

39 minutes ago, Mark Salkeld said:

Hi

 

Yes, very stange.  I did find marraige for him but nothing else - James Egram and Agnes MacFarlane were married about May 1955 in Newton Abbot, Devon, England.

 

Mark

Going off on a tangent i know, but have you seen that marriage certificate?

A James Egram died in Totnes, Devon in 1963 aged 76 (so he was Bernard's brother).

How old was the James Egram who married in 1955?

It's not impossible that he could have married aged 68?

 

If that isn't the case, then we have another Egram who appears in the system with no track record, a bit like Bernard in reverse!

And when we're only dealing with a single family in the whole country, with only about 8-10 members, to fail to identify 2 of them is perplexing

[Mark Salkeld]

1 minute ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Going off on a tangent i know, but have you seen that marriage certificate?

A James Egram died in Totnes, Devon in 1963 aged 76 (so he was Bernard's brother).

How old was the James Egram who married in 1955?

It's not impossible that he could have married aged 68?

 

If that isn't the case, then we have another Egram who appears in the system with no track record, a bit like Bernard in reverse!

And when we're only dealing with a single family in the whole country, with only about 8-10 members, to fail to identify 2 of them is perplexing

 

Hi

 

I've not seen the marriage certificate but I think I saw a probate record in which James leaves his money to Maud.  I will see if I can find it again.

 

Mark

[Mark Salkeld]

4 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Going off on a tangent i know, but have you seen that marriage certificate?

A James Egram died in Totnes, Devon in 1963 aged 76 (so he was Bernard's brother).

How old was the James Egram who married in 1955?

It's not impossible that he could have married aged 68?

 

If that isn't the case, then we have another Egram who appears in the system with no track record, a bit like Bernard in reverse!

And when we're only dealing with a single family in the whole country, with only about 8-10 members, to fail to identify 2 of them is perplexing

 

You may be right - according to the Probate, Maud died in September 1954 and left her money to James.  So it's plausable he remarried and the line ended here. 

 

Mark

[Derek Black]

An Agnes Egram died in 1971 aged 84 in Ayr.

The only one in Scottish BMD's.

 

Derek.