Shot at Dawn

[SMG65]

On ‎05‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 19:03, RaySearching said:

I assume The soldier in question is T/4/040862 Driver Thomas Moore

 

 

From Here 

Thomas Moore was buried near where he was executed. His grave, however, was lost and so his name was added to the Menin Gate Memorial in Ypres.
 

Burial location on service papers on Ancestry

 

The below is the picture of the soldier who MAY be Thomas Moore.

He was a pre war soldier in the Special Reserve and then a  pre war Regular in the RFA and I am told that this is a 'pre war' stepping out uniform.

He is facially like the other Moore brothers and the only one to serve pre war.

It's just that stripe on his arm, I know as said on a previous post that the rank of L/Cpl was not recognised but I can't see anything on his discipline sheet that would show he wuld ever gain a promotion.

[SMG65]

Another interesting point is that he only has a stripe on his right arm.

Was that normal?

 

Sean

[BullerTurner]

On 11 October 2016 at 09:49, SMG65 said:

Another interesting point is that he only has a stripe on his right arm.

Was that normal?

 

Yes, on full dress/walking-out dress it was.  The rank was worn on both arms in service dress.

[David Filsell]

It seems  a wry fact, and one which I fail to understand, that those tried and shot at dawn seem of greater interest to many of than those who died at dawn on every day of the war.

[Neil Mackenzie]

But perfectly understandable if the man in question is your great-uncle as in this case.

 

Neil

[John_Hartley]

David

 

This thread is no different from many others we've had over the years, asking "where did my ancestor die and where is he buried". Can we not deal with the thread with the same sense of equality that CWGC affords to all those who died.

 

John

 

[Ron Clifton]

When an inquest (or military board of inquiry) returned a verdict of suicide, it was common to add a rider "while the balance of his mind was disturbed." This permitted burial in consecrated ground.

 

Ron

[Muerrisch]

The photograph looks like "blue patrols". These were a private purchase, often indulged by comparatively well-paid soldiers in India and the Colonies but less often at Home and then mainly by senior NCOs.

 

The cap was abolished for RA in 1902 I believe "except in India"

 

Difficult to be sure from such a limited photograph, but i doubt if this is your man.

[SMG65]

David

 

My interest is because he was my Gt Uncle.

He is of much interest to me as my other two relatives who died in the war and my relatives who survived the war.

I have researched them all equally and walked their ground as well.

 

I have not requested a Pardon for him, nor do I want some TV show with Great War 'Experts' try to locate him and dig him up.

I want him to Rest In Peace, he had none in life.

He was convicted of Murder, in a modern day court it would be Manslaughter, it wasn't a modern day court, it was a Court Martial and I can see the sense in the judgement.

The man he killed was his friend, I visit his grave and lay a poppy on it whenever I pass.;

 

Sean

 

[johnboy]

Sean,

No explanation was needed.

[Stoppage Drill]

In UK burial of suicides in consecrated ground has been permissible since 1823, though until 1870 it had to take place at night and without benefit of any form of service.

 

For the Church of England, from 1882 a more normal burial routine has been allowed (with the consent of the Ordinary) with a religious ceremony, but the usual Burial service from the Book of Common Prayer cannot be used. "Here it is to be noted that the Office ensuing is not to be used for any that die unbaptized, or excommunicate, or have laid violent hands upon themselves." (First words in the Order for the Burial of the Dead.)

 

 

[IPT]

My religious sources tell me that the General Synod voted to allow funerals for those that died by suicide in 2015.

[Stoppage Drill]

The full Burial service, yes. Whether a vote of Synod is sufficient, I am not sure, as the procedure since 1882 has been governed by law, the Interments (Felo de Se) Act of that year. Maybe a legislative change is necessary.

 

Anyway, it doesn't alter the fact that burial of suicides in consecrated ground, albeit with caveats, has been permissible since 1823.

[TTracer44]

But would all these religious acts have been known or adhered to, my guess is it would ordipend how rushed they were and who the officer in charge was, if they had some free time on there hands would it have been a different outcome. Just trying to feel the situation as they would have and it's not easy.

[johnsutton]

Slightly off topic, the well-known number of 306 soldier commemorated in the SAD memorial at the NMA will become 309 with the inclusion of the three executed mutineers

(Pte Jack Braithwaite NZEF, LCpl Jesse Short and Gunner William Lewis) at a ceremony on 29th Oct 2016.

Descendants of all three soldiers will be in attendance.

John Sutton

 

[Phil Wood]

Having just read through this thread for the first time I have two points:

 

1. A cow shed of 10ft by 5ft would be of little use for cows (you could perhaps get one cow in it) - if those are the measurements it was surely there for some other purpose?

 

2. Consecrated ground refers to churchyards, not CWGC cemeteries. A great many of the men buried by the CWGC (IWGC as was) would have been horrified to be buried in 'consecrated ground' - such would be anathema to many noncoformist Christians, let alone jews, muslims, hindus, etc. This is the reason why most commercial and municipal cemeteries have separate areas of consecrated and non-consecrated ground.

[Chris_Baker]

Just a thought. CWGC says there are 798 British and Commonwealth graves in Reninghelst New British Cemetery, but names only 792. Implication: there are six buried as "unknowns". Have you looked the the grave registration forms for the cemetery? You never know. I found a case recently where the man is clearly named on the form but had been buried marked only as unknown.

[Alan24]

Here's some images of 28 G22.b8.8 from the NLS website.

[SMG65]

Phil

You are right about the cow shed, it is just a term that us townies use for any building on a farm that we don't have a clue about what is it used for.

Perhaps storage/fodder?

It is quite clear on Alan's aerial pic so I think it is about 10 by 5.

 

Alan

 

Excellent picture, thank you, I shall be there on the 5th November.

 

Sean

 

[SMG65]

Chris

 

Hope you are well.

 

The CWGC said that they will look at where the graves of the Unknown soldiers were located to see if they match the grave location of Thomas Moore.

 

Sean