HELP wanted Northumberland fusiliers

[quadrangle]

Hi

I have hit a brick wall with research into my fathers movements during the Great War.

 

He joined up on 7th Dec 1915 at Elswick work school, he was an apprentice fitter at Armstrongs factory Industrial group 26. , his birthday was on the 15th Dec when he was to be 19. I assume he enlisted under the Lord Derby Scheme, but only guessing.

   His initial regimental number was 4/6841 and subsequently he served with the 3rd Tyneside Scottish  (35492)and the 9th Bn NF.(35492)

His name Pte Robert William Murray. According to Army Form Z 22 , he was with the 9th Bn when transferred to the reserves on 24/2/19.

Although I have resources such as the war diaries and  am looking for timeframes when he served with the three Bn's. I am drawing a blank.

 

I have a Excel data base currently  building up to over 1200 names who served with the 9th, I can not find a number close (36225 is best)

or any remotely like 4/6841.

hopefully when I get my Tyneside Scottish book which has  a roll of names it may help.

Also currently looking at numbers on the "UK, WW1 Service Medal and Award Rolls" for numbers close, hoping that their individual records are

not "burnt". It may turn up something.

 Any tips greatly appreciated

Regards

Tony

[RussT]

A quick look at FMP shows there are plenty of records of men with NF numbers with 354xx which you could look at.

 

For example there is Thomas William Oliver who had the NF number 35493 (one digit away from your man). He was formerly 4/6600 - the 4/ prefix means he was earlier with the 4th Bn NF. Indeed, it seems he had an earlier NF number still - being 6/4394. So you could start with him to see if any similar patterns emerge.

 

There are also NF experts on the Forum who will already have done this type of work and who might come along and provide some advice.

 

Regards

 

Russ

Edited 2 October , 2016 by RussT

[RussT]

T W Oliver's record shows he was posted from the 4th to the 22nd (3rd TS) on 27/10/1916 when I assume his 35493 number was allotted. So perhaps your man was posted to the 22nd at the same time.

 

 

 

Edited 2 October , 2016 by Martin Bennitt
Suspected Ancestry image or similar

[tullybrone]

Hi,

 

I doubt The Tyneside Scottish book written by forum members Graham Stewart and John Sheen will help you much as their nominal roll only lists original enlistments. There were numerous transfers in immediately post 1st July 1916.

 

Good Luck

 

Steve Y

[quadrangle]

Thank you Russ,

 I have Ancestry and subscriptions to everything but FMP currently.

I will check T W OLIVER  out on the sites I have access to, however the overseas posting date of 27/10/16 does make sense.

It's probably more difficult to work out the change to 9th Bn. from the 22nd. In the summer of 1917 he did not want to go back to the trenches

and went AWOL , was apprehended in London, sent back to the front (July 1917) and immediately wounded. In Sep 1917 after

six weeks in hospital in Sheffield, he was again sent back to France. Are these possible dates when he was re posted to the 9th Bn?

Is one more likely than the other?

Again many thanks your help.

Tony

[quadrangle]

1 hour ago, tullybrone said:

Hi,

 

I doubt The Tyneside Scottish book written by forum members Graham Stewart and John Sheen will help you much as their nominal roll only lists original enlistments. There were numerous transfers in immediately post 1st July 1916.

 

Good Luck

 

Steve Y

  Ah well it was worth a try

Cheers

Tony

[quadrangle]

4 hours ago, RussT said:

T W Oliver's record shows he was posted from the 4th to the 22nd (3rd TS) on 27/10/1916 when I assume his 35493 number was allotted. So perhaps your man was posted to the 22nd at the same time.

 

 

 

I re joined FMP as my Ancestry search was fruitless, I found also that William Veitch 35497 (on FMP) was posted to 22nd NF on 27/10/1916.

So it looks as if you were correct.

Cheers

Tony

 

 

[RussT]

3 hours ago, quadrangle said:

Thank you Russ,

 I have Ancestry and subscriptions to everything but FMP currently.

I will check T W OLIVER  out on the sites I have access to, however the overseas posting date of 27/10/16 does make sense.

It's probably more difficult to work out the change to 9th Bn. from the 22nd. In the summer of 1917 he did not want to go back to the trenches

and went AWOL , was apprehended in London, sent back to the front (July 1917) and immediately wounded. In Sep 1917 after

six weeks in hospital in Sheffield, he was again sent back to France. Are these possible dates when he was re posted to the 9th Bn?

Is one more likely than the other?

Again many thanks your help.

Tony

 

Tony

 

I would venture that it might be quite difficult or indeed impossible to say when he was posted to the 9th Bn as he seems to have had a set of very individual circumstances.

 

Ascertaining the dates of transfers and postings in lieu of a record is only really feasible when there is a batch posting/transfer of men, where hopefully some records survive from the batch. It would be worthwhile to cast your net a bit wider in this 354xx and 355xx number series to see if there is any pattern - you never know without looking.

 

Russ

 

 

[RussT]

1 hour ago, quadrangle said:

I re joined FMP as my Ancestry search was fruitless, I found also that William Veitch 35497 (on FMP) was posted to 22nd NF on 27/10/1916.

So it looks as if you were correct.

Cheers

Tony

 

 

 

Yes, Ancestry is effectively useless, which is a shame given that they have the same set of service records as FMP.

 

I have noticed that Ancestry strive (often very poorly) only to index a man with his first service number whereas FMP strive (often very successfully) to index a man with every number he had during his service. The only (minor) complaint with FMP is that when you go to a record for a man indexed under a number other than his first, it starts from the page where this number first appears so you can't paginate backwards. You then have to make a note of his name and/or previous number(s) and search again to get to page 1 of the record.

 

I also saw William Veitch's record but there is nothing better than discovering these things for yourself !

 

Regards

 

Russ

[quadrangle]

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 22:31, RussT said:

 

Tony

 

I would venture that it might be quite difficult or indeed impossible to say when he was posted to the 9th Bn as he seems to have had a set of very individual circumstances.

 

Ascertaining the dates of transfers and postings in lieu of a record is only really feasible when there is a batch posting/transfer of men, where hopefully some records survive from the batch. It would be worthwhile to cast your net a bit wider in this 354xx and 355xx number series to see if there is any pattern - you never know without looking.

 

Russ

 

 

  This was good advice Russ , there were a lot of bodies( in 345XX etc) that were given postings on the 27/10/16  in accordance with Army order 204 of 1916.

They sailed to France from Folkestone on 11/10/16 arrived Boulogne same day. Some sailed a day earlier. It is clear from some of these records that they were given new numbers at this stage , they  were headed for Estaires, like W Veitch (35497) my father most probably joined the 22nd on 7/11/16. Incidentally he lived in Benwell as did my father . Some of these men were assigned to the 21st NF . The war records for 22nd note that a draft of 200 OR's were received on 7/1/17 ( untrained) and 41 joined on 25/1/17. They were located at the time in divisional reserve at ERQUINHEM. Question is was he trained or "untrained"? ( enlisted 4th Bn 7/12/15). Any comments?

   I think he was with the 22nd until he was wounded in summer 1917.Possibly re assigned to a new Bn on returning to France in Sep 1917. He was apprehended in London as an absconder with a Sgt he had met on the platform of Newcastle railway station. When sent back to the front the Sgt was KIA on the first day back in the trenches. I have not considered the Sgt may have been with the 22nd until now. If I find him it will be another link in the chain.

Thanks again your help.

 

[Graham Stewart]

Lot of guess work here and I'm going to show you just how complicated this all gets from one set of records belonging to the next number after Robert William Murrays renumbering from 4/6841 to 35492

35493 Pte Thomas William Oliver - resided 20 Howard St, Newcastle

Enlisted/Embodied - 3/6th Bn(19/7/15) numbered 6/4349

Posted - 2/6th Bn(6/8/15)

Posted - 6th(Res)Bn(29/8/16)

Posted - 4th(Res)Bn(1/9/16) - renumbered 4/6600

France - 11/10/16

Posted - 22nd Bn(27/1016)

Wounded/sick(?) - 24/4/17

To UK - 12/6/17

Posted - 3rd(Res)Bn(13/6/17)

Sick - 16/6/17

To France - 15/8/17

Posted - 24th Bn(15/8/17)

Posted - 8th Bn(27/8/17)

To UK - Wounded/sick(?) - 16/11/17

Posted - N.F. Depot

Posted - 3rd(Res)Bn

Deserted - 15/7/18

Re-joined - 8/12/18

Discharged - 24/4/19 - KR Para 392(xvi) - S.W.B. No.B/272034

This is just one man among the thousands who served with the N.F. and to-date my Database has listed 99,460 inidividuals many of whom are on the FMP website, which is licensed from me.

Personally and looking at the numbers involved between the two men, it's not inconceIvable that they followed a very similar path in some respects, but as those of us who construct these regimental databases know, without the documentation it's impossible to map out a mans service career accurately.

Quadrangle - You mentioned you're trying to compile a database of those who served with the 9th Bn, but all of the original members of this battalion had low numbers in the 10*** series. The 354** series was divided between the 14th,12th,20th & 22nd Battalions.

 

Edited 4 October , 2016 by Graham Stewart

[quadrangle]

Hi Graham

I understand that there are very few if any 354** series in the 9th Bn. Which leads me to question why my father was one. The Data base just started to grow as I had always wondered where my father was in ww1.The war diaries for the 9th are a wealth of information with all OR casualties being listed for a large part of the time . This combined with data from Cookes history and other sources is making a very interesting study. I felt the data base when completed will be of value to others researching the 9th. As my father was

seriously wounded in summer of 1917, I thought I would find him there, I did not so this led me to believe he was with the 22nd when wounded.

   Because he was an absconder in London ( 1917) I am seeking Police Gazette records. In researching I note that you have kindly put some records on the internet on FMP?, however the years 1917 and 1918 , I can not find. Do you have ready access to them? I also contribute to the war memories project which has the same records, frustratingly no 1917. Would appreciate any further help you can give. Hopefully your book will arrive shortly.

Regards

Tony

 

[Graham Stewart]

19 hours ago, quadrangle said:

Hi Graham

I understand that there are very few if any 354** series in the 9th Bn. Which leads me to question why my father was one. The Data base just started to grow as I had always wondered where my father was in ww1.The war diaries for the 9th are a wealth of information with all OR casualties being listed for a large part of the time . This combined with data from Cookes history and other sources is making a very interesting study. I felt the data base when completed will be of value to others researching the 9th. As my father was

seriously wounded in summer of 1917, I thought I would find him there, I did not so this led me to believe he was with the 22nd when wounded.

   Because he was an absconder in London ( 1917) I am seeking Police Gazette records. In researching I note that you have kindly put some records on the internet on FMP?, however the years 1917 and 1918 , I can not find. Do you have ready access to them? I also contribute to the war memories project which has the same records, frustratingly no 1917. Would appreciate any further help you can give. Hopefully your book will arrive shortly.

Regards

Tony

 

Hi Tony - Unfortunately I only have a few of the Police Gazettes in my collection and the odd thing is that I've got all of the Regimental Journals for the period and have checked on line through local newspapers, as well as having War Diary casualty lists and your father isn't listed in any of these as wounded, which I find very strange indeed. Those around him are appearing as being wounded from Jan 1918 onwards - however caution has to be added here, as these dates can be months out of date.

On creating your Database - I found the best programme to use was infact Microsoft Access, which I found purely for data, whereas the Excel programme I found to be a nightmare as its principal fuction is accountancy based and caused me a lot of problems so changed it to Access.

[quadrangle]

Hi Graham

  I believe my father was wounded on a night raid, he had been told to stay still if the Germans set off a star shell, this advice he regrets.

He did not know he had been hit until he got back to the lines, his mate said " Geordie,you've been hit"

by the time he got back to the first aid post the pain was unbearable.

No wounds were recorded on his Z22 form despite several nasty scars and six weeks in a Sheffield hospital.

In an operation in 1957 they unearthed  that he was still harboring shrapnel in his body but not at the wound site. If you have the "st george gazettes"

could you tell me if they contain battalion soccer match results ? the war diaries have a few, but not those mentioned in a letter from my father at the front.

He said the machine gun corps beat them 2-1, problem is I don't know if he played for  the 22nd or the 9th? also "we" beat "D" company 7-2, this tells me he was not in "D"

company, which is something, again don't know which Bn. Any help appreciated.

  He was also given Field punishment No 1 , I do not know if this is traceable.

 

  Thanks for the tip about Access I will investigate. I am now up to 1500 entries, surprised how many were wounded multiple times and remained at duty.(RAD)

Sgt Swinburne M of "A" Co (12895) was wounded 3 times for example , I have not looked at his fate as I am only up to May 1917.

Unfortunately the wealth of information peters out on the death of Captain and Adj W. F. Robertson 17/10/17 aged 23 . He was killed instantly when a shell hit Bn HQ ,  History records "even more poignant was the grief over the Adjutant . "Bill" Robertson, as he always was, and always will be , known, was an officer who belonged to the battalion from the very first.Two years in France as Signal Officer , and for the past twelve months as Adjutant, brought him two mentions in despatches, and his work and personality made him popular with everyone" A scotsman from Edinburgh with a legacy through his written word in the Diaries.

Cheers

[quadrangle]

I have found another link in the chain concerning my Fathers' WW1 history.

Pays not to give up.

The source was a notice in the Newcastle Evening Chronicle of 2nd Nov 1917.

"Mr and Mrs Murray, 24 Benwell Dean Terrace have got official news that their son Robert W Murray has been gassed,

he is in Wharncliffe Hospital Sheffield"

I have been unable to find any other reports of his misfortunes in either St Georges Gazette or the Times.

Despite him having other woundings. 

I am now looking at when he would have been gassed and with which unit of the NF.

The 22nd or the 9th.?

Any suggestions as to how much time would have elapsed between the gassing and the report would be welcomed.

What the likely CCS would have been and the evacuation route?

Regards

Tony