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Remembered Today:

Seeking information on my g-uncle


Guest sherrie

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Guest Sherrie

Hi,

I have found Samuel Hickling on The Commonwealth War Graves Commission who is the brother of my g-grandfather. Below is the information I found:

Private SAMUEL HICKLING

3661, 2nd Bn., Royal Warwickshire Regiment

who died on Saturday 25 September 1915.

Remembered with honour

LOOS MEMORIAL

My g-grandfather was a British Home Child sent to Canada when he was 12, his brother Samuel who was 14 remained in Birmingham. We have very little knowledge of Samuel and I'm looking for any information. I also have a photo I believe is him. It's a wedding picture and he has a uniform on. I was wondering if I could send it to someone and they could confirm the uniform is British and what the bar on his chest represents (the photo is black and white) I know he was married in 1902 and would have been about 19 at that time, in this photo he looks older than 19. I was wondering if anyone knew of his enlistment date, I guess I assumed he enlisted around the War. Perhaps he remarried a second time after 1902, closer to the war and that's why he has the uniform on. So many unanswered questions, so little time. Any help someone could provide would be gratefully received.

Thanks ~ Sherrie

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Sherrie,

Could you post this photo on this forum? You could scan it,and post it as an attachment, or send it to Chris and he'll give you the instructions on how to make it appear on this thread.

I'm sure that someone will be able to help if we can see the pic.

Welcome to the forum,

Dave

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Thanks Sherrie.

I can tell you for certain that it's certainly not Samuel!

The soldier in the photo is wearing the 1937 style battledress blouse and the ribbon of the Africa Star (a campaign medal awarded for service in N.Africa between 10th June 1940 and 12th May 1943 (though service in Somaliland,Eritrea,Abyssinia and Malta also qualified for this award). This is definately a WW2 photograph, probably taken after 1943.

The battledress was worn by most Commonwealth troops (although Australians (though some had battledress)still tended to wear the WW1 patt. tunics with 2nd AIF buttons), so it's difficult to pinpoint the nationality (Canadian B/dress tended to be "greener" than the Brit. style.). A simplified version with exposed "bone" buttons came out in 1940 (the "1940 pattern"), but the 1937 pattern continued to be worn untill the 1950's( with an open collar after 1949). For this reason ,I'd date the photo between 1943 and 1945.

Sorry it's not Samuel,

Dave. :(

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Guest Sherrie

Dave,

Thank you for all that info. If I'm reading you correctly it still could be a British uniform? But for the WW2 period? Truthfully I'm not 100 % certain that the Samuel I found on CWGC site is my Samuel, but I've been told that he was born in Ladywood Birmingham as was my Samuel. I was hoping to find out more about his service so I could confirm 100 % that he's mine. I'm going to go look for a marriage between the years you gave me, perhaps the soldier was a different Samuel and mine was still alive? I appreciate your help, and patience with a newbie in this arena. ~ Sherrie

If anyone could give me more details about this Samuel Hickling's service to perhaps clarify if he's related I would appreciate it ~ Thanks

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Soldiers Died in the Great War CD confirms the following for Samuel Hickling:

Born: Ladywood, Birmingham

Enlisted: Birmingham

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Sherrie.

If your Samuel was born around 1883 then he would have been about 60 in 1943 if he was still alive so as Dave says the picture is definately not the original Samuel.

The WW1 Samuel could have been married for up to 12-13 years so possibly had children. Just a guess but could the photo be of his son who was given the same name?

Just to confuse matters, the 1901 census shows two Samuel Hicklings. One aged 12 and born in Derby, another aged 15 and born in Nottinghamshire but living in Leicestershire. I don't currently have the ability to look into the Census in more detail - sorry.

Neil

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Guest Sherrie

Finding Samuel in the 1901 census has always been a problem, I have found 2 close possibilites but alas no certainties. I have never found a son of Samuel only a daughter. I wondered if in order for his wife to collect a pension (did they do that in the UK?) would he have to have a UK death certificate, even though he was killed in France? I have looked in the death index around that time period and have never found one. It's uncanny how much that man looks like my g-grandfather the divot in the chin and hairline are exact, but as one responder stated the uniform's date and a marriage would not match my Samuel's age. I have never found another Samuel Hickling born in Ladywood, so I'm pretty certain the Soldier is my Samuel, but have come to the conclusion with everyone's help the picture is not :(

Thanks everyone! If you know anything more of Samuel the soldier I'm all ears!

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Without a doubt,Sherrie,the picture that you have posted is that of a WW2 soldier.

Not only is the uniform WW2,but the photo is of WW2 quality as well.

There is a lot of difference in the quality of photographic paper between WW1 and WW2 although,having said that,there were lots of differences between photographers during both world wars as well.

I wouldn't look on this as being a soldier from the First World War.

More than likely,this was a soldier who had served in the early battles during the 2nd World War.

Hope you have luck in finding the Samuel Hickling from 1915.

His army number would seem to mean that he was either a regular soldier,ie some one who had made this his living as a soldier,or a part-time soldier who was called up very early during the war.

Hope you have as much luck finding info,as i did.

You are in the best place,if you are looking for help.

Good hunting,

Regards.

Simon Furnell.

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Guest Sherrie

Simon thanks for your response. I always wondered if the reason I couldn't find Samuel in the 1901 census is because he was enlisted. I wasn't sure where in the census to look for an enlisted man. I wondered however if he was a "career" soldier from 1901-1915 when he died, wouldn't he have risen above the rank of Private? How old did you have to be to enlist?

I would have to agree, I think I was quite fortunate to be directed to this list with my query as everyone has already been quite helpful and there seems to be very informed responders willing to assist.

Can anyone tell me whether he would have had a death certificate in the UK even though he died in France, in order for his wife to receive a pension?

Thanks ~ Sherrie

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Can anyone tell me whether he would have had a death certificate in the UK even though he died in France, in order for his wife to receive a pension?

Yes he would. I think that the death certificates of those who died abroad are held by the GRO (General Register Office). I'm unsure of the address, but I'm certain that someone on the forum will know.

By the way, I'm yet to find any blood relative of mine on the 1901 census! (I take it that,like myself, my ancestors (a bunch of "wanderers" and soldiers)were just very pig-headed and detested filling forms in!!! :D )

Dave.

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The death register indexes are at the Families Record Centre in Myddleton Place? London. The reference gained from the index will result in a certificate which will contain only the very briefest of details.

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Guest Sherrie

I have reviewed all the indexes around 1915, they are available on-line in a pay per view site. Samuel is not listed. In the states when there isn't a body to confirm death ( and I would assume maybe there wasn't where he died in France) there is a waiting period of 5-7 years, before death is certified as certain. I thought that I didn't find a death certificate because I only looked around the 1915-1916 time period. Would the death ONLY be registered in the area he was born even though he didn't die there? Should I look beyond 1916?

~ Sherie :blink:

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Hi Sherrie

Indexes may not always be complete, there is an index for the 1881 census, and some of my relitives are not recorded in the index evan thou they are in the 1881 census. So the index you looked at may be incomplete ? Also like Dave, I have 7 relitives that I know were around in 1901 but are not be be found on the on line census, two or three of them may have been in the Army at the time ?, two were killed in the Great War.

At present I have payed a researcher to look through burnt and unburnt records at PRO, to see what can be found.

Good luck with you search

Annette

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Sherrie

All the deaths of men who died while in military service in WW1 are registered separately, and will not appear in the general registers of deaths. Most on-line services will not bring up details of these [unless they have changed recently]. There were, of course, hundreds of thousands of WW1 Army deaths, and even if no body was recovered it was not a bar to the issue of a death certificate. The registers for these deaths are at the Family Record Centre, in Myddleton Street, and on fiche at some other locations, although most places that hold fiche for Births, Marriages and Deaths in the UK - e.g. libraries, do not have those for overseas deaths and 'death in service'. It should be a comparatively easy search for a researcher, whether positive or negative.

Regards - Sue

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Ian.

There are 11 Hickling males, between the ages of 4 and 18 and living in Birmingham in the 1901 census. It seems strange that none of them made it into the War - or is the National Roll limited to those who died?

Neil

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Neil

The National Roll of the Great War was not limited to those who died. It was a commercial venture and entries had to be paid for by individuals or their families.

Terry Reeves

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Terry.

Thanks for that. Another gap in my knowledge filled - plenty more to go though!!.

Neil

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Guest Sherrie

Sue - Thank you for explaining why I wasn't finding Samuel's death listed in the GRO index, I will contact the Family Records Centre and see what I can learn from them.

Ian- I appreciate you letting me know he was not on the National Roll, if as Terry stated the entry had to be paid for by the individual or his family I'm not surprised it's not there, assuming he died he wouldn't have put it there himself and his family was very fragmented and from what I've learned not to well off in the financial department.

For everyone who helped me with the photo identity I have discovered who he was, which would have been impossible without you dating the uniform for me. He was a nephew of Samuel Hickling, the son of Samuel's sister and his name was Harry Hampton. I am delighted to have solved another bit of this family's history.

Samuel Hickling is the only sibling I still no nothing about. You know what I know. Hopefully I will learn from this group how I can discover more about him and his military life. Living in Maine in the USA makes research in the United Kingdom a bit of a challenge but that just makes it more interesting.

Thank you everyone ~ Sherrie :D

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  • 8 years later...

You have probably found out alot of information by now, so I don't know if what I have is relevant, but I would love to know what family information you have on his siblings and parents ect, also any photos you might have, I am a decendent of Rosetta Hickling, but I thought Samuel and Rosetta were the only siblings, so I would like to see what else you have.

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