JMB1943 Posted 23 September , 2016 Share Posted 23 September , 2016 (edited) I thought that I would enlist the help of the Pals here to determine when & why the maker's stamp was changed from JAC to CHAPMAN. My only example is a JAC (1 '16) but many of those that I have seen on auction sites are CHAPMAN, from 1917 & 1918. Also, CHAPMAN is the only stamp on the P.1888 bayonets that I have seen. Did the maker's stamp start as CHAPMAN in 1908, change to JAC and then revert to CHAPMAN ? If we can find the earliest/latest dates of JAC/CHAPMAN, those questions should be answerable. Regards, JMB Edited 23 September , 2016 by JMB1943 Add text Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 September , 2016 Share Posted 23 September , 2016 28 minutes ago, JMB1943 said: I thought that I would enlist the help of the Pals here to determine when & why the maker's stamp was changed from JAC to CHAPMAN. JMB, Here is my Chapman made Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet with the hooked quillon still attached, front and reverse ricassos, issued in May 1910. As you can see, Chapman's maker's mark is the earlier ' JAC ' for James A. Chapman. The pommel is marked ' 3 RI ' for the 3rd Battalion The Royal Irish Regiment, plus 5379 being the bayonet's serial number. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 23 September , 2016 Share Posted 23 September , 2016 My 2 JAC November 1908 CHAPMAN October 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickjam Posted 25 September , 2016 Share Posted 25 September , 2016 Here is a 1908 and 1911 Chapman ,1911 is australian issue. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 25 September , 2016 Author Share Posted 25 September , 2016 (edited) Lancs/5th Batt/Mickjam, Thanks for posting up photos of your JAC/Chapman examples---and nice examples they are too. On 9/23/2016 at 15:33, JMB1943 said: Also, CHAPMAN is the only stamp on the P.1888 bayonets that I have seen. Please excuse the senior moment here, because I knew previously from Skennerton's book that Chapman did not make the P. '88 bayonet. Because P.'07's made by Chapman Ltd are now relatively scarce, I thought that I might trawl back through previous threads here on GWF & Ebay to try to gather some more examples. This has so far produced the tabulation shown below, in the order discovered. Marking Date Source JAC 1 '16 JMB JAC 5 '10 4th Lancs JAC 11 '08 5th Batt Chapman 10 '18 5th Batt Chapman 10 '16 Ebay Chapman 9 '17 Ebay Chapman 5 '15 Shipping Steel JAC 12 '08 Tocemma JAC 6 '09 Shipping Steel JAC 12 '08 Mickjam JAC 7 '11 Mickjam There does seem to be some consistency, with "JAC" being used until early 1916 and "CHAPMAN" thereafter. However, the Chapman dated 5 '15 obviously does not fit the pattern. Fortunately, there are still many, many GWF threads left to check......... Regards, JMB Edited 25 September , 2016 by JMB1943 typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 25 September , 2016 Share Posted 25 September , 2016 (edited) Senior moments? Well, we are allowed those! But where was SS's 5/15 posted? May it have been mis-read? 5/18? By the way, thanks to my daughter I did check out both the Sanderson and Chapman factory locations in Sheffield, but nothing left at either (although the Sanderson site had some very interesting other sights!). The daughter also put me in touch with the archivist for the Sheffield Cutlers but I haven't yet followed that up to see if they have anything at all on either JAChampan or Sanderson... Julian PS: JMB, a very late reply email to follow this week sometime! Edited 25 September , 2016 by trajan Add PS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 25 September , 2016 Author Share Posted 25 September , 2016 Trajan, See http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/146922-p1907-bayonet-finishes/ #7 for a photo of SS's 5'15 Chapman, very clearly that date. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 26 September , 2016 Share Posted 26 September , 2016 Yes, there can't be any doubt on that one - thanks for pointing me to it. Best, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 27 September , 2016 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2016 Well, I have finally trawled the Arms pages (not completely, but exhaustively; i.e. my eyes are exhausted) and believe that there are enough examples of both JAC & CHAPMAN to define the trend. JAC (11) CHAPMAN (9) 11 '08 1 '12 2 x 12 '08 5 '15 3 '09 9 '16 6 '09 10 '16 8 '09 9 '17 5 '10 5 '18 7 '11 8 '18 12 '15 10 '18 1 '16 11 '18 3 '16 Some overlap in the period 1912-16, but JAC was the early mark up to 1916 'ish and thereafter it was CHAPMAN. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 September , 2016 Share Posted 28 September , 2016 Given how they were relatively small producers, it is interesting that they mixed these two stamps this much. Now, the real challenge (when eyes recover!) - any consistency in the inspection marks? Same numbers/initials? Best, Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 28 September , 2016 Author Share Posted 28 September , 2016 Trajan, Unfortunately, only 8 of these 20 had inspector stamps that were clear enough to record unambiguously. I can say that "4H" might be associated with JAC, not CHAPMAN, but that is it. Again, too few samples to draw any further conclusions. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 6 October , 2016 Share Posted 6 October , 2016 On 9/23/2016 at 21:10, Lancashire Fusilier said: JMB, Here is my Chapman made Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet with the hooked quillon still attached, front and reverse ricassos, issued in May 1910. As you can see, Chapman's maker's mark is the earlier ' JAC ' for James A. Chapman. The pommel is marked ' 3 RI ' for the 3rd Battalion The Royal Irish Regiment, plus 5379 being the bayonet's serial number. Regards, LF I have a stablemate, with quillon removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 6 October , 2016 Share Posted 6 October , 2016 Frog is marked SRG and Rhodesian Leather Industries and "named". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 6 October , 2016 Author Share Posted 6 October , 2016 GWF, Thanks for posting that, I'll add to my list. Has interesting markings on pommel; any thoughts ? Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 7 October , 2016 Share Posted 7 October , 2016 Will have to do some more photos of mine but here's the ownership marks. First the 1908 Hooky The 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 7 October , 2016 Share Posted 7 October , 2016 9 hours ago, JMB1943 said: GWF, Thanks for posting that, I'll add to my list. Has interesting markings on pommel; any thoughts ? Regards, JMB Nope, I'll have a stab at the R.E mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 October , 2016 Share Posted 7 October , 2016 10 hours ago, GWF1967 said: Can't recall ever seeing one like that before! I realise that the frog and bayonet need not necessarily belong to together from the first issue, but perhaps this is some specific Rhodesian marking? 7 hours ago, 5thBatt said: The 1918 My guess on the first of these is that there is an 'I' lightly struck at the end of the top line, so giving 'W.Y.I' for West Yorkshire Infantry (the 'Kings Own') - with 'R.R.' for 'Regimental Reserve'? Second is 'Officer Training Corps / Nottingham University' Julian PS: All good thoughts bayonet lovers for poor old JMB who lives in the path of the Hurricane Michael... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 7 October , 2016 Share Posted 7 October , 2016 JMB Only have one Chapman P'07, in not very good condition. Marked CHAPMAN, the date stamp is for December 1916, the pommel has the number 132, which has been stamped over with a line through the numerals. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 October , 2016 Share Posted 7 October , 2016 (edited) While cleaning up my files I found this one which I then discovered I posted at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/231764-two-nice-unit-marked-hqs/#comment-2307930 An 05/10 JAC, marked for the Royal Jersey Militia Edited 7 October , 2016 by trajan Get rid of two-level posting of photographs, one below the other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 10 October , 2016 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2016 Thanks all for posting the additional photos & examples; they do confirm the pattern of JAC to 1916'ish and CHAPMAN thereafter. Regards, JMB Hurricane: We are 6 miles inland & the eye of the hurricane was 1 mile offshore, so we dodged the pointed end ! The blunt end brought down trees which cut the power lines, so no power from 10 am Fri to 9pm Sun; no internet until 11am today. Overall, very thankful that we didn't have to suffer what the people of New Orleans did during the Katrina saga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mk VII Posted 12 October , 2016 Share Posted 12 October , 2016 Got a 1 17 CHAPMAN here, (4H/E 5B/E 58/E stamped) and a 9 17 one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 13 October , 2016 Author Share Posted 13 October , 2016 Mk VII, Thanks for the info; I'll add it to my database. Are you sure that the 5B/E and 58/E are different ? Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 May , 2018 Share Posted 7 May , 2018 And here for you all to raise a mournful glass to as an example of Turkish bayonet cleaning methods is a 5/15 CHAPMAN... Over here they are very good at using the grinder for removing 'rust', aka patina, using a grinder. Not the first example of the method I have seen by a long shot... Wanted to cry when I saw this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 May , 2018 Share Posted 7 May , 2018 On 9/25/2016 at 15:07, JMB1943 said: Lancs/5th Batt/Mickjam, Thanks for posting up photos of your JAC/Chapman examples---and nice examples they are too. Please excuse the senior moment here, because I knew previously from Skennerton's book that Chapman did not make the P. '88 bayonet. Because P.'07's made by Chapman Ltd are now relatively scarce, I thought that I might trawl back through previous threads here on GWF & Ebay to try to gather some more examples. This has so far produced the tabulation shown below, in the order discovered. Marking Date Source JAC 1 '16 JMB JAC 5 '10 4th Lancs JAC 11 '08 5th Batt Chapman 10 '18 5th Batt Chapman 10 '16 Ebay Chapman 9 '17 Ebay Chapman 5 '15 Shipping Steel JAC 12 '08 Tocemma JAC 6 '09 Shipping Steel JAC 12 '08 Mickjam JAC 7 '11 Mickjam There does seem to be some consistency, with "JAC" being used until early 1916 and "CHAPMAN" thereafter. However, the Chapman dated 5 '15 obviously does not fit the pattern. Fortunately, there are still many, many GWF threads left to check......... Regards, JMB Posted the last one in haste because - as usual - up to the eyes with things... Then went back a bit on the thread and saw this list. Hmmm.. The one over here is an 05/15 so anothet that does not quite fit the profile... Interesting... More fun there JMB me old mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 8 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2018 Trajan, Thanks for the latest example. I must admit to being curious about the timing of the apparent switch from JAC to (largely) Chapman in 1916. We know that Wilkinson went to Wilkinson Pall Mall in the same year. Coincidence? Or did Chapman seek greater visibility for their war effort ? Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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