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Remembered Today:

12th General Hospital Rouen


clivefarmer

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I am researching a relative who was wounded in France in early August 1918 . There is no official note on his service record of treatment in France  but he stated when later applying for a pension that he had been treated at "12th General Hospital Rouen" . The Long Long Trail has it that by August 1918 12th General Hospital at Rouen had been take over by the US Army and the British run 12th Hospital had moved to St Pol which is around 50 miles away from Rouen ..It appears from the dates of his movements that he would only have been at "12th General"  for a few days so it might have been more of an assessment than treatment and he was then sent to Woodlands VAD back in the UK . Is it feasible that he would have been treated or assessed by the US? Or is it more likely that he was confused and was actually treated at St Pol ? Probably no way I will get a definitive answer but ideas would be welcome

 

Clive Farmer

 

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Clive,

 

You're much more likely to get answers to the questions by adding a name, number regiment and links to his record, either ancestry or Findmypast.

 

Dates given in records are frequently mis-interpreted and may need checking.

 

My interpretation of the info on TLLT is that 12th Gen Hospital was taken over by the US in June 1917 who continued to man it. A qucik search of the forum & via google shows British troops treated at 12 GH after June 1917.

 

The 12th Stationery Hospital (completely different outfit) moved from Rouen to St. Pol in June 1916. Without seeing the records I'd say he was treated by the US at 12 GH in Rouen.

 

TEW

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Thanks  yes I was being a bit too casual . Arthur Burg initially 5th then12th Rifle Brigade s/34271 after April 1918 ASC Driver m33216 believed serving with 402 mt coy or attached to 230 Siege Battery RGA .Two similar but not identical versions of his service record under Arthur Burg on FMP for some reason nothing shows on Ancestry . He states wounded 6/8/1918 but no mention on that date in war diary of 230 SB or 402 MT Coy . IF 12TH General Hospital known to have treated British wounded although under US command that would explain his statement that he was treated there in August 1918 but any more comments would  be welcome .

 

Thanks Clive

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Had a look at his FMP records and will provide a direct link in case anyone else wants a look. Quite interesting and informative records. I see he had earlier ailments and his Aug 1918 wound was Shell Shock.

 

I didn't see any mention of 402 mt coy or attached to 230 Siege Battery RGA in those records so I presume that info comes from elsewhere?

 

Had a look for the diary for 402 MT RASC and eventually found what remains of it on the Canadian Archives site, nothing at National Archives UK and the Canadian remains don't cover the period you're after. But perhaps it goes some way in explaining why he went to a US run hospital.

 

There are 3 diaries available for the 230 Siege Battery RGA, but it seems a long shot to expect to find him mentioned in those and they would be £3.45 each.

 

His STATEMENT AS TO DISABILITY as you say mentions 12th GH Rouen and Woodlands, I have seen these records where men have omitted hospitals accidentally or otherwise.

 

He served for 3 months in France with 12th Rifle Brigade and was compulsorily transferred to ASC 8/4/18. The diary for those 3 months with RB are on ancestry and would at least give an overview of where he was and what they did for those months.

 

I also see that following his stint in Woodlands he was at the 'RA & Tank Corps command depot' Catterick (Hipswell) and then went to Ripon and returned to Catterick just after the armistice. That at least shows some link to either Artillery or Tank Corps but I have no idea what that is.

 

No idea what this ailment is but it seems related to his shellshock

 

Clipboard01.jpg

Hopefully others may read this and can add some more info.

 

TEW

 

 

 

 

 

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Chorea? Sticking my neck out but means involuntary jerking movements. Maybe badly spelt by the person filling out the form, or one of those words which have changed the way they are spelt over the years.

Michelle 

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It ends -rrhoea which means a flux or flow of something. Can't make pyorrhoea or steatorrhoea or diarrhoea out of it though.

 

Gone off to think.

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Otorrhoea = discharge of fluid from the ear/s as a result of infection, and/or following on perforated eardrum.

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Think you have nailed it seaJane, definitely looks like Otorrhoea, a common occurrence a perforated eardrum.

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Goes with the shell shock and buried for several hours I guess. Although discharged for otorrhoea.

TEW

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Might be discharged for a perforated eardrum if it was bad enough to deafen him?

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May be one of those seemingly unjust cases of someone who was blown up by a shell, buried and unconsious for several hours but developed otorrhoea while convalescing from the shell shock. He was not actually discharged sick/wounded but transferred to Class z Reserve 24/1/1919 and his pension claim started 25/1/1919. No sign of a SWB.

 

His army form B.179a 'medical report on a soldier boarded....' states that the disability was not an injury. There is also a note saying 'B.103 states wounded 11/8/1918, no other documentary evidence'.

 

His own 'Statement as to disability' states he had shell shock 6/8/1918 and gives 12th GH Rouen & Woodlands. But his 'Table II. admitted to hospital' sheet doesn't mention 12th GH, only Woodlands where he arrived 17/8/1918.

 

He was discharged from H Battery Catterick command depot ( RA & Tanks Corps) Dec 1918, no idea what H battery links to.

 

Present condition in Jan 1920 was discharge from both ears.

 

Not sure if they actually believed his shell shock injury or perhaps without the evidence had to ignore it.

 

As far as 12th GH Rouen is concerned and given there are 2 dates for his shell shock injury the diary is not that helpful.

 

6/8/1918. No cases recieved.

7/8/1918. 108 cases received from No. 9 Ambulance Train.

 

11/8/1918. 11am. 114 cases received from No. 46 Ambulance Train.

                   3pm.  58 cases received from No. 27 Ambulance Train.

 

An undated Aural Test has the following and I can't make it all out.

 

Untitled.jpg

 

TEW

 

 

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Embarked Sept 1917. To France Jan 1918. Otorrhoea bilateral Sept 1918, while convalescent from wounds (in England).

Wax & debris removed today from both meati.

Rt. [ear] old thickened M.T. L. [ear] attic [?] perforations dry, partly concealed by stenosed meatus. 

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In this context the meatus [plural meati] is the ear canal which on the left side was stenosed or narrowed, obscuring the perforation of the eardrum.

 

I am not sure about the abbreviation M.T. or the word I have transcribed 'attic' - will check.

Edited by seaJane
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OK - 'attic' simply means that the perforation is in the upper part of the eardrum.

 

Later: Tew, I have come to the conclusion that M.T. must be the Latin abbreviation for tympanic membrane (Membraneum Tympani) or eardrum, which is often thickened by middle ear infections. The fact that the medic specifically remarks 'old thickened M.T.' makes me suspect a history of repeated infection.

Edited by seaJane
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You are correct that there is nothing on his service record to say in what part of the ASC he served but the link is on Ancestry , the 1919 absent voters roll

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=BmQ722&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=arthur&gsfn_x=0&gsln=burg&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1897&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=iga&pcat=35&h=428629803&recoff=5 6&db=LMAelectoralreg&indiv=1&ml_rpos=3

I hope I have copied the link properly but a search for Arthur Burg on the Voters roll finds him at 38 Thornhill Road Islington 1919  easily enough .

The entry against his name says 230 Siege Battery MT . Those soldiers actually part of the siege battery were gunners of the RGA but 420 MT coy were the ammunition train for this and other siege batteries . I have the war diaries for both the 230 Siege Battery and the 420 MT Coy and although the latter does in fact list o/rs wounded or killed by name and number Arthur Burg is not mentioned on or around the date he states he was wounded . Possibly he was moved to another unit by August . The absent voters roll seems a good source of information but I think only the London Rolls are available online .

 

You noted that he ended up at Catterick in the RA and Tank Corps Command - another question mark which I have not yet addressed

 

I am going to assume that "12th General Rouen " was in fact the US run hospital but any more comments would be most welcome

 

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Seajane, thanks for the medical terminology, always good to expand on these details.

 

Clive.

Have seen the absent voters list and obviously agree he was with 230 Siege Battery. I'm not sure when that list was taken, it relates to Autumn 1919 but when was the AVL compiled? Bearing in mind he went to Class Z reserve in Jan 1919 the AVL must have been compiled before then. Should he not be be on the 1918 AVL as well?

 

With the AVL stating 230 Siege Battery and one of the Catterick sheets saying H Battery in Dec 1918 seems to give the idea that he was a driver (his civilian occupation) attached to 230 Siege Battery which you said in post#3.

 

Perhaps a new topic is need to work out his link to 230 Siege Battery and H Battery Catterick command depot. 420 MT ammunition column may well also need drivers but what provides a link to them?

 

I'd say the 12th GH Rouen was the US run one. Without knowing how badly his shellshock condition was perhaps the 12th GH was just part of the evacuation chain to get him back to the UK. In other words he may have been admitted to 12 GH and been on the next ambulance train to a ship bound for the UK. Some days in Aug 1918 they were having four ambulance trains per day removing wounded. So he may have been admitted there but only stayed a few hours until the next ambulance train took him on.

 

TEW

 

 

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To TEW AND SEAJANE

 

A response to two of the many points raised. Firstly Arthur Burg was my father- in -law and I knew him well in his declining years . He did not wear a hearing aid which were of course large and clunky in the 1960s and I do not recall he had any noticeable hearing loss . I would have expected a perforated eardrum to be  permanent but perhaps it could have healed over time ?

As to the Absent Voters Roll . Ancestry has  2 entries . both shown as 1919 , one with the full service details , and a number referring to a previous AV  roll . and the other with no service details but  showing his voting qualification as NM ie he was in the services when that list was compiled , so I think this one is probably 1918 although shown as 1919 .

More later .

Clive

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Hi Clive,

 

Just to say that I only raised deafness in my post 10 as a possibility not a certainty. While the recurrent ear infections would have affected his hearing at the time, you are correct that a perforated eardrum may heal. If it didn't, however, or if he had nonetheless incurred some hearing loss, it's entirely probable that a hearing aid wouldn't help the situation and that he might have acquired good lip-reading skills by the time you knew him - in which case you might not notice deafness.

 

I'm speaking from experience here as I have hearing loss myself, but very few people realise thanks to the lip-reading.

 

sJ

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I can't really add much about his hearing abilities. The attic perforation was in his left ear only. His record includes an aural report in Jan 1920 which gives the following:

 

Right - Speech - 27' - whisper - 8'

Left - Speech - 27' - whisper - 5'

 

I have no idea what scale is being used or what 'normal' hearing would be marked or how the test was carried out. If it was as basic as talking and moving closer until the speech was heard and repeating the test with a whisper it would depend on the tester as much as anything else.

 

Treatment was recommended in Jan 1920 but disability was noted as 'very slight'. The statement assessment of disability reported on reports less than twenty up to two - 2% which is not a helpful way to describe his disability, was it less than 20% or up to 2%?

 

TEW

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Hi Tew,

 

I think your second guess is right and the 'scale' is of distance from which speech or whisper can be heard.

 

It bears no relationship to any audiogram I've seen in the last 50 years although changing volume by switch rather than changing distance must be more objective. I suppose the tester must have crept up on the patient from behind in order to avoid visual responses?

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GREETINGS .As regards Arthur Burg's hearing issues I think the possibility that he supplemented probably damaged hearing with lip reading is entirely consistent with his behaviour . In small groups eg 3 or 4 people in close proximity over the dinner table he participated fully in the conversation but in larger social gatherings he became withdrawn and distant which could well be because lip reading clearly becomes more difficult with greater distance and with a larger number of people to try and focus on . Thanks for the insight .

 

I have rethought the unit Arthur probably served in , My first thought was as follows . The Absent Voters Roll states 230 Siege Battery who had eight six inch howitzers , The men of this unit were gunners of the Royal Garrison Artillery and Arthur was an ASC internal combustion driver . The ammunition for 230 SB was supplied by 420 MT ammunition column and those who served were ASC men so I assumed this was Arthur's unit . But......420 MT supplied ammo for a number of Siege Batteries , its very unlikely that Arthur would have been dedicated to just one Siege Battery more likely he would have supplied any who needed resupply so the entry on the AV Roll which specifies only one SB would not fit this assumption .However reading one of the  the 230 SB war diaries  it is obvious that the howitzers needed repositioning , moving from time to time , guns damaged by counterbattery fire taken away etc and such tasks needed drivers , Quite likely that the gunners did not have driving skills so it now seems more probable that Arthur was attached directly to 230 SB driving a tractor or lorry moving guns , That assumption might also help to explain why he finished up at the Royal Artillery Depot on his return to England , rather than an ASC depot somewhere . Its frustrating that the War Diary for 230 SB for the period in question ie April to Aug 1918 is missing , At some time 230 SB was under Canadian command so I will search the Canadian archives . Any comments on this somewhat rambling thought process would be welcome .

 

One last thought on War Diaries , TEW quotes some figures of wounded being taken to 12th General - did these figures  come from a War Diary or another source ?

 

Clive

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