Turkish Gallipoli Star - Help Spotting The Fakes

[trajan]

On 9/19/2016 at 01:45, Sepoy said:

This is the only publication, I am aware of, which simply covers the "Turkish Gallipoli Star"
https://turkishwarmedal.wordpress.com/2012/03/02/the-turkish-war-medal-harp-madalyasi-by-m-demir-erman/ ... Unfortunately, I have not seen the book so can make no real comment about it. I am also unable to comment about current fakes/reproductions but I would also be most interested to hear about them.

 

On 9/23/2016 at 22:11, Bilco said:

There's a pretty comprehenisve thread on the GMIC Forum  http://gmic.co.uk/topic/57871-gallipoli-star-and-campaign-bars/

 

On 10/10/2016 at 01:07, Medaler said:

... Yes, it is a BB&Co example - and I am very pleased with it. It is the only example of a Turkish award in the collection, so it is quite special to me. ...

 

Sepoy and MIke,

 

Well, I bought the book, and it does seem to be pretty thoroughly researched by a Turkish medal collector, who has his own collection of these  - and who, incidentally, lives in the next-mahalle-but-one over from me and so I guess I'll get to meet him at some point soon. He also very kindly gave me a contact to his own dealer in case I need to look out some more (after I present here the two that I already have!). His book cites some 15+ references, some to archives, some to respectable journals, and so it looks to be properly researched. Oh, and he includes copies and transcripts/translations also of the original documentation relating to the introduction of the Harp Madalyasi and what was given to the recipients.

 

Nothing that I have noticed yet on identifying fakes (and there are also lots of reproductions around over here sold as such), but just to confuse things, Demir Bey does make it clear that there are the 'originals' and the 'contemporary copies' of these Harp Madalyasi... The 'originals' are the basic medal (well, strictly speaking, I guess an 'order' as it was pinned on?), as this awarded to the recipient with a certificate, being a thin white metal star with a lacquered obverse design often in an orangey-red, sometimes in a redder hue. The 'contemporary copies', made during WW1 and after (it seems, up to the 1930's), are in silver or silver-plated metal, some made in Germany, some in Austria, with a brighter 'carmine' red enamel infill on (usually) a machined surface, these ones being made for those who wanted a 'smarter' more 'impressive' version of the basic award. He lists ten known makers of the known 'contemporary copies', including the 'BB&C', which seems to have made the most and which is as yet an unidentified maker - and adds that: "Even medals made by BB&Co show differences" in style and (I assume) finish... Note, incidentally, that strictly speaking, as the 'BB&Co'  mark is on the pin, then whoever they are, they are not necessarily the makers of the medal itself. 

 

Finally, the GMIC link - yes, a useful one, thanks Bilco, and there are some others on that forum also! I am certain I saw one once, long ago, when I originally joined GMIC, that identified BB&Co, but I am bu**ered if I can find it again!

 

Best wishes, one and all,

 

Julian

[Medaler]

Hiya Julian,

 

Very interesting stuff that. On the "Contemporary copies" front I have heard of silver examples, but I think they were usually nickel plated brass. What I hadn't realised was that the copies were all "upgrades". I had thought that some of them were issued as the "original issue" to some officers. The book sounds like a really good resource for the collector.

 

On the whole, unless I am just bad at finding them, there seems to be very little written about "foreign" awards for WW1. There was certainly a huge and bewildering variety of different issues amongst the Allied nations. Even though they are universally unnamed, they have their own fascinating little stories behind them and have added to my knowledge of the war. I am very much a learner with this stuff, but its nice to get involved in something "new". It also means that I get to answer a few of those "what medal is this?" questions that get asked on here!

 

Regards,

Mike

 

 

 

[trajan]

9 hours ago, Medaler said:

... On the "Contemporary copies" front I have heard of silver examples, but I think they were usually nickel plated brass. What I hadn't realised was that the copies were all "upgrades". I had thought that some of them were issued as the "original issue" to some officers. The book sounds like a really good resource for the collector. ... 

 

On the whole, unless I am just bad at finding them, there seems to be very little written about "foreign" awards for WW1. There was certainly a huge and bewildering variety of different issues amongst the Allied nations. Even though they are universally unnamed, they have their own fascinating little stories behind them and have added to my knowledge of the war. I am very much a learner with this stuff, but its nice to get involved in something "new". It also means that I get to answer a few of those "what medal is this?" questions that get asked on here!

 

'Morning Mike,

 

Well, I had to admit that until I read the book, I wasn't exactly clear myself on how the 'posh' ones fitted into the scheme of things - despite much googling including extensive searches of Gent.MIC (which has a lot), War Relics Forum, etc., etc.. 

 

Anyway, to the book... Erman does not specify his source but writes (p.42) that the 'White' metal used in the 'standard' or 'original' War Medal was 50% copper, 25% nickel, and 25% zinc, and it should measure 56 mm left to right; and 54 from top to either bottom finial - but there are exceptions! 

 

His principal source on the German and Austrian 'copies' is K.-G. Klietmann, "Die Kaiserlich Osmanische Kriegsmedaille von 1915", in Ordenstunde vol.50 (1976), 566-582. According to his reading of this (p.60-61), these ones are usually slightly larger, at 58-59 mm wide, and they came in "silver, silver plated copper, brass, bronze and copper, and aluminium".  

 

As for literature on other foreign awards/medals, well, I am not a medal buff, as you know, but I have seen a fair bit of discussion about these on Gent.Milit.Int.Club, so it might be worth having a look-see there and note if there are any useful references!

 

Best, Julian

[trajan]

Now, this is perhaps taking an interest in these ones a bit too far...

 

 

[trajan]

Sorry to keep adding, but a hectic in and out type of day so taking chances to post when I can!

 

1) Derman Erman's book quotes (p.35) an Army Order dated 1915 that regimental commanders could personally recommend people for the Harp Madalyasi, without needing higher approval, and says that the result was it started to be more freely awarded among the German soldiers fighting in the Ottoman Empire rather than to Ottoman soldiers.

 

2) He also notes (p.36-37) a decree of 1921 signed by M.Kemal Pasha (as speaker of the Republican parliament) that the Harp Madalyasi could be awarded to those fighting in the (Turkish) Independence War... 

 

3) He also shows (p. 98-99) some incomplete pro-forma certificates (with gaps for names and dates) in the German language that were pre-rubber-stamped by Liman von Sanders authorising the award of the Harp Madalyasi to the (un-named) recipients - some of them already dated 30 Oct 1918... Which is when the Ottoman's surrendered... 

Edited 26 January , 2017 by trajan

[bob lembke]

Having all these "Gallipoli Star" experts at hand, I can't resist a related question.

 

I have my father's medals from the Great War. He was given no medal of valor by the German Army, as he killed a company commander, but when the event was deeply investigated the regiment's officer found that the officer was so bad that the men were not actively punished (and were even given barrels of beer!), but my father received no medals of valor from the German Army during the war, getting his EK II in 1921 from the Ministry of War. (I also have the dated award certificate.) He also received no promotion from Pionier (i.e., "Private" in the Engineers), although he commanded a small unit later and should have been made a NCO.

 

As he was in the flamethrower regiment of the Prussian Guard for about two and a half years, wounded in combat four times, and saved a lieutenant's life on Dead Man's Hill at Verdun, one would think he would have gotten the EK II; one Austrian said that the only way to avoid it was death. However, he got his Wound Badge, they hardly could have denied him that.

 

However, before killing his CO, he served at Gallipoli,at the ANZAC beachhead.  In the volunteer Pionier company, doing mining operations. He arrived in early November 1915, I think, He told me that he was entitled to the Gallipoli Star. Was every German who served in Turkey entitled to one?

 

What about any German who served at Gallipoli in a combat unit, even during a quiet period?

 

I am thinking of framing my father's medals, or a replacement set, keeping the originals (and certificates) aside, and I am wondering if I can truthfully add the Galipolli Star.  

 

Thanks in advance for your wise counsel. 

[Medaler]

4 hours ago, bob lembke said:

Having all these "Gallipoli Star" experts at hand, I can't resist a related question.

 

I have my father's medals from the Great War. He was given no medal of valor by the German Army, as he killed a company commander, but when the event was deeply investigated the regiment's officer found that the officer was so bad that the men were not actively punished (and were even given barrels of beer!), but my father received no medals of valor from the German Army during the war, getting his EK II in 1921 from the Ministry of War. (I also have the dated award certificate.) He also received no promotion from Pionier (i.e., "Private" in the Engineers), although he commanded a small unit later and should have been made a NCO.

 

As he was in the flamethrower regiment of the Prussian Guard for about two and a half years, wounded in combat four times, and saved a lieutenant's life on Dead Man's Hill at Verdun, one would think he would have gotten the EK II; one Austrian said that the only way to avoid it was death. However, he got his Wound Badge, they hardly could have denied him that.

 

However, before killing his CO, he served at Gallipoli,at the ANZAC beachhead.  In the volunteer Pionier company, doing mining operations. He arrived in early November 1915, I think, He told me that he was entitled to the Gallipoli Star. Was every German who served in Turkey entitled to one?

 

What about any German who served at Gallipoli in a combat unit, even during a quiet period?

 

I am thinking of framing my father's medals, or a replacement set, keeping the originals (and certificates) aside, and I am wondering if I can truthfully add the Galipolli Star.  

 

Thanks in advance for your wise counsel. 

 

Form my understanding the Harp Madalyasi was a minor gallantry award, given for similar acts as the EK2 or British MID. As such it was more of a decoration than a campaign medal. Simply serving in a given geographic area during a defined time period was not an automatic qualification for the award. I am however absolutely not an expert on these - and Trajan might easily give you a better quality of answer from his new book!

 

Warmest regards,

Mike

[trajan]

18 hours ago, bob lembke said:

... He told me that he was entitled to the Gallipoli Star. Was every German who served in Turkey entitled to one? ... What about any German who served at Gallipoli in a combat unit, even during a quiet period?

 

13 hours ago, Medaler said:

... the Harp Madalyasi was a minor gallantry award, given for similar acts as the EK2 or British MID. As such it was more of a decoration than a campaign medal. Simply serving in a given geographic area during a defined time period was not an automatic qualification for the award. I am however absolutely not an expert on these - and Trajan might easily give you a better quality of answer from his new book!

 

Not only am I away from home right now but me older lad has the book at the moment, and so when I prise it from his hands tonight I'll check on things! I got the impression, though, that although it was fairly widely awarded to Germans serving with Turkish forces (Bulgarians and Austrians also), it wasn't an automatic thing. Also, I'll double check when back, but it was a merit as much as a gallantry award. It is possible, Bob, that some of your dad's mates got it, at the time or retrospectively, and he probably quite rightly believed he deserved one also. And why not? Some of the sailors on the two German ships received the decoration!

 

Julian

[trajan]

I thought I'd add this one, posted on GMIC by Demir at: http://gmic.co.uk/topic/59252-the-illustrated-war-news-sep-29-1915-iron-crescent/ and taken from The Illustrated War News September 29, 1915, on the introduction of the Harp Madalyasi as it is NOT in his book. The comment on its being "distributed also as lavishly almost as the Iron Cross" is an interesting one, as is the comment about the "German manufacturing firms who won the contract"... The "originals" were all (apparently) made in Istanbul, and it is only the "contemporary copies" that were made in German (and Austria).

 

Oh, and by the way, it has been suggested (and can be read at some auction sites) that Binder Brüder & Co., of Lüdenscheid, were the firm behind the "BB&Co" versions, but a check of their web page: http://www.gebr-binder.de/ reveals them as gold and silver chain makers prior to and after WW1, and as eye-glass frame makers during the Great War, and so nothing to do with making medals and/or orders... 

 

Julian

 

 

[Medaler]

8 hours ago, trajan said:

 

 

 

Now that is interesting, because the implication is that the Germans were manufacturing these for a Turkish Government contract, and not as some kind of optional "upgrade" because they didn't like the finish on the originals. Sounds to me like they made up the bits of the story that they didn't actually know. There might also be a good tale behind how the Illustrated London News got hold of one to photograph in September 1915! (I dare say that they were a lot harder to find on Ebay in those days than they are now)  :-)

 

That bit about the real BB&Co not making them that you have dug up also intrigues me - maybe they just made the pins supplied to one of the manufacturers? I can certainly see a connection between chain making, wire spectacle frames and brooch pins. Its harder to see a similar connection with engine turning and enamel work.

 

Mike

[trajan]

Bob/Mike, on the system of award: In the Turkish and the English translation in the book of the Osmanli text of Article 1 of the original Regulation regarding the "War Medal", it says that it was for those who "showed gallantry and merit on the battlefield". However, this was later amended to read "...on the battlefield and on other occasions", which is why there is a "combatants" ribbon, red edges, white stripe, and red centre, and a "non-combatants" ribbon, with the colours reversed, but the medal remained the same...

 

16 hours ago, Medaler said:

... Now that is interesting, because the implication is that the Germans were manufacturing these for a Turkish Government contract, and not as some kind of optional "upgrade" because they didn't like the finish on the originals. ... how the Illustrated London News got hold of one to photograph in September 1915! (I dare say that they were a lot harder to find on Ebay in those days than they are now)  ... That bit about the real BB&Co not making them that you have dug up also intrigues me - maybe they just made the pins supplied to one of the manufacturers? 

 

Yes, I was wondering exactly what was meant by the German contracts... And how the ILN got hold of one so quickly. I also wondered if BB&Co were simply the pin makers - but it is rather odd that the 'actual' makers did not mark the thing themselves...

 

The mysteries deepen...

 

Julian

[Medaler]

2 hours ago, trajan said:

Yes, I was wondering exactly what was meant by the German contracts... And how the ILN got hold of one so quickly. I also wondered if BB&Co were simply the pin makers - but it is rather odd that the 'actual' makers did not mark the thing themselves...

 

The mysteries deepen...

 

Julian

 

As the statement comes from the ILN during wartime, I wouldn't place too much store in what it is saying. I wouldn't think that they had access to any official German or Turkish documents to back their claims up. It is probably just a Chinese whisper (not that they are in the frame for having been involved!).

 

You are however backing my gut thought that they needed to be awarded for "something" and were not just sent up the line with the rations. That is bad news for the contributor here thinking about getting hold of one to place with the medals of his ancestor. He would really need to establish definite proof of entitlement rather than just hearsay. How he would go about getting that is a mystery. Maybe the Turkish authorities kept a roll or had some kind of equivalent to the London Gazette? - That however goes way beyond any knowledge that I have. As an opening gambit, I might try a speculative letter to the Turkish Embassy. Another approach might be to contact one of these Turkish groups of collectors and enthusiasts, I would imagine that they would know what paperwork survives concerning original recipients and where to find it.

 

Regards,

Mike

[trajan]

Chinese whispers indeed on who was making these things... It does need further looking into and sometime probably in the summer I'll try to meet up with Demir, the author of the book, and try out a few thoughts on him.

 

I'll also see if there are any official rolls - there could very well be as Ottoman bureaucracy was inherited directly from the Byzantine system and so... !!! (Indeed, our two boys are registered as coming from Erzincan, their ancestor's home area, even though they were born in Istanbul, as it was under the Diocletianic system on people belonging to the place of their ancestors!).

 

But yes, although Bob Lemke's dad may well have felt entitled to a Harp Madalyasi, if there is no certificate to state this, then...

 

In the meantime, these are the vendor's photographs of my 'original' one - I'll post the BB&Co later. This one has already caused some comment from Demir as the front looks 'fine', but the back has a 'German' type pin fastening - complete assembly horizontal and soldered on, as opposed to the usual practice of a separate horizontal pin and hing and catch system.

 

[sawdoc34]

This is a bloody interesting read chaps, many thanks to all that have contibuted👍

 

Having just bought a BB & Co example (should arrive on thursday 🤞), I was thinking of trying to hunt down a Turkish made example also but couldn't find a pic of the rear & type of fixing on the Istanbul made ones until I saw Julians (nice one mate)..... question is does anyone else have a Turkish made example that they could show pics of?

 

Have also added a few more WW1 edged weapons, will do a post before returning to work on sunday.

 

Cheers, 

Aleck

[sawdoc34]

2 minutes ago, sawdoc34 said:

Does this look correct or an old copy 🤔

Edited 23 October , 2019 by sawdoc34
Extra pic

[Medaler]

I can't really answer that with any authority, but I didn't want to leave you without an answer. it certainly shows the right signs of age and the right level of detail in the script on tthe obverse. Emphasising that I am not qualified to judge on these (which is why I asked for help in the first place), it looks good to me.

 

Regards,

Mike

[trajan]

On 23/10/2019 at 15:12, sawdoc34 said:

Does this look correct or an old copy 🤔

 

 

On 24/10/2019 at 15:27, Medaler said:

I can't really answer that with any authority, but I didn't want to leave you without an answer. it certainly shows the right signs of age and the right level of detail in the script on tthe obverse. Emphasising that I am not qualified to judge on these (which is why I asked for help in the first place), it looks good to me.

 

Good to see you back Aleck! You have been a long time away!

Is this flat or bowed? The enamelled part seems to be on a plain background but it is usually on a diamond-engraved pattern. The tighra and gazi sumbol, to the right, and the date on yours seem ok, except that the date is missing a '1' at the start for (1)333. But I am no expert - except to say that this don't lok like a BB&Co version!

 

These ones are tricky, as I have found out when corresponding with Demir, a guy here in Ankara who wrote the book on the things. The usual mistakes in the fakes are in getting the tughra and gazi monogram, and the date all wrong. BUT, the jewellers making them in Berlin or wherever might have been responsible for these mistakes! The thing is that although this was an Ottoman decoration, those Germans, Austrians, and well-off Turkish officers who got this had them made by a wide variety of jewellers ... And then there are those slight differences from the one version to the next. E.g., one I bought recently and sent to Demir for confirmation  - shown below - has the wrong date, 1222 when it should be 1333. I received the reply that it was not exactly a fake but not exactly a regular piece either - "although the body looks like a Werner (not the original issue but a later date, because of the position of the tugra against the back ground star), "el Gazi" mahlas and year do not match Werner. Actually as far as I know, el Gazi doen't match any other company's mahlas also. Werner logo at the back also does not match Werner's style, letters are different, they dont have the tails. ( see attached photos) The pin and catch is Werner but attached later to the body or received some maintanence."