Marriage in Omsk by a Sergeant on the 1/9th Hants

[corisande]

Welcome to the Forum, Ann Ellis

 

Yes, there are still plenty of readers.

 

What can you add about your grandparents, or indeed what can we help you with?

[Ann Ellis]

yes.  I'll provide more information and a photo (s)

[butler]

The earliest enlistment I could find was Pte Allen who enlisted 3.2.12.  Sgt Lillington would have enlisted about July 1912. He was not commissioned until after the war.

 

Pte 355630 Charles Ernest Shobbrook, served C Coy, address 4 South Ave, Oldfield Park, Bath, probably born 22.3.93 Bath, died Feb'90 Barnstable, Devon. Initially enlist as 1014 or 1015

[Ann Ellis]

[corisande]

Thanks for the photo. Always good to put faces to names

 

Do you know exactly where his marriage took place, and was it recorded by the British. There are other marriages of British soldiers that I am trying to find, and have not been able to find a source

 

Do you know anything about where he was kept in Siberia - I thought that they had all been held in Moscow but perhaps it was only the officers (I have some notes on Col RJ Andrews who was a prisoner,on this link)

[Ann Ellis]

I'll ask my mother some questions today when I talk to her.  I'm in the U.S she is still outside of Manchester England and my Brother Mark is in Australia.  George & Ludmilla had 3 children.  George Eric,  Donald Robert and Irene. 

[corisande]

Thanks

 

I think a fair number of British married Russians, but there seems to be little record

 

I am also interested in GLO Shiner - click for his full details -  who appears to have married a Russian, fathered a child, then left them in Russia for whatever reason

[James A Pratt III]

My notes from the Book "Civil War in Siberia" Jon D Smell have 500 American soldiers marrying Russian women about 10% of the force.

 

In case you wonder how the Russian women learned English Baroness Sophie Buxoeveden in her book "Left Behind" Chapter XI  mentions teaching it to other Russians. She was a lady in waiting to the Empress Alexandra and the book is on line

[MaureenE]

From the link, now archived I gave in post 15,

 

"As in North Russia, where relations be­ tween the American troops and local citi­zens became more friendly as the months passed, there were prosecutions for failing to take precautions against veneral disease. Requests for Major Mclean's legal advice in the matter of social intercourse, however, soon went well beyond criminal law. For,  as the AEF presence in Siberia lengthened in time, American soldiers were falling in love, and a large number were deciding that they wanted to marry their Russian girl­ friends. In the U.S. Army of the day, a soldier had to obtain his commanding officer's per­mission to marry. Apparently this permis­sion was freely given, and the resulting marriages meant a number of legal ques­tions for the expedition judge advocate. Could an army chaplain lawfully marry a soldier and his Russian girlfriend? Was a marriage ceremony performed by a Russian Orthodox priest valid under U.S. law? What rights did these new wives have to return with their husbands to the Philippine Is­lands? And when those husbands sailed home from the Philippines to the United States, what was the immigration status of these Russian-born wives?

 

After some research, George McLean ad­vised that a marriage performed by a chap­lain was lawful, as was a marriage done by the local clergy in conformity with local law. The former, however, no doubt was eas­ier to accomplish. Consequently, after ob­taining permission from their commanding officers, soldiers routinely were married by AEF chaplains. For example, on Thursday, July 17, 1919, 1st Lt. Z.T. Vincent, a chaplain, married Pvt. Guy Kelley and Miss Maria Ki­selova in Vladivostok. The wedding cere­mony was performed at the American consulate under the supervision of the vice-consul, who then issued a certificate recognizing the legality of the marriage under U.S. law. Later, Mrs. Kelley and other Russian-born wives accompanied their husbands to the Philippines- and to the United States. But leaving Siberia with their husbands was not trouble-free; records show that military authorities in the Philip­pines complained that Russian women ar­riving on army transport ships often had not been deloused. In one case, this caused an outbreak of typhus fever and necessi­tated the fumigation of the entire transport ship".

 

I get the impression that the Americans in Russia were perhaps a much larger force than the British and/or more organised and settled. Major Mclean in the paragraph above was the army lawyer at the American headquarters in Vladivostok, and there was a similar role in the American headquarters in Murmansk. There is reference to Army Chaplains and marriage at the American consulate. Did the British have personnel in  such roles? The American Russian wives returned on an Army transport ship. Did this happen with British Russian wives?

 

Were British marriage laws different?

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

 

 

[corisande]

2 hours ago, Maureene said:

Were British marriage laws different?

 

I don't know, but a number , difficult to know how many, did come back to UKDoing a quick trawl of UK papers unearths a number of articles, for example the snippet below - click for full article. The Russian wife's right to a share of the soldiers pension does not appear to have been questioned by the court

 

I will add the soldiers name for indexing - it was William Hoyle of Colne

 

Edited 14 July , 2019 by corisande

[corisande]

And another case involving an ex-soldier Reginald Bullen who married 17 year old Lenora in Archangel. The full article is on this link - click

 

[corisande]

There seem to be a lot of references in the press, and the young ladies came back on troop transports, so seem to have been officially recognised

 

[MaureenE]

Thanks corisande, interesting to read those newspaper extracts.

 

As the Russian wives of British army soldiers came back on troop ships there must have been British Army acceptance that they were "officially" married to the extent they were "on the strength" assuming this concept continued to apply.  You would think there would be some sort of record relating to this. I have never heard of any, except there are apparently some unindexed marriage records held by the GRO relating to Regimental Registers. I believe in the past there was a listing of  the the relevant Regiments available, but I am not aware of  such a listing online although I believe a list may appear in the book My ancestor was in the British Army by Michael J. and Christopher T. Watts.

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

[corisande]

14 minutes ago, Maureene said:

As the Russian wives of British army soldiers came back on troop ships there must have been British Army acceptance that they were "officially" married to the extent they were "on the strength" assuming this concept continued to apply.

 

Yes, that is my feeling too.

 

I put those last two excerpts up to show that it was "official"

 

So as you say, there should be an official record somewhere, as it effected not only places on troop ships, but things like pension entitlement in UK

[MaureenE]

I have now found a GRO reference for one of the above marriages, that for Bullen, in  a GRO dataset GRO ARMY MARRIAGES WITHIN BRIT. LINES 1914-1925, which I accessed on https://www.familyrelatives.com/. This set of records, with additional GRO indexes is free, but you do need to register.

 

I had a look, but could not see a record for Lillington, or Hoyle (mentioned in newspaper article)

 

There appear to be a lot of records from Constantinople, some from Batoum and Baku, but I only saw one other from Archangel, and the bride appeared to have a British name.

Cheers

Maureen

edit: two separate screen shots have joined together.

 

Edited 14 July , 2019 by Maureene

[corisande]

Well done Maureene that is a very interesting breakthrough . I will wander off and trawl through it.

[nhclark]

There's now a book (March 2019) entitled "Churchill's Abandoned Prisoners: The British Soldiers Deceived in the Russian Civil War" that I suspect will be of great interest to anyone related to the 15 prisoners.

 

Details here: https://www.scribd.com/book/410947380/Churchill-s-Abandoned-Prisoners-The-British-Soldiers-Deceived-in-the-Russian-Civil-War

 

Author: Rupert Wieloch

Publisher: Casement

ISBN: 9781612007540

[nhclark]

Also I note the reference above to a Pte. Shobbrock of the 1/9th Hampshires. I suspect that the spelling should actually be SHOBBROOK, and that the recording is of Pte. Charles Ernest Shobbrook 355630 who served with the 1/9th (from the medal rolls). Pte. Frank Lowton Shobbrook 011019 also served with the Hampshires, but not, as far as I can see, with the 1/9th.

[travers61]

If anyone interested in the abandoned Prisoners is near London, it seems the author is giving a free talk at the National Army Museum in August 2019.

 

https://www.nam.ac.uk/whats-on/churchills-abandoned-prisoners

[MaureenE]

I have now come across some information that there are some  records at the GRO in the series Regimental Registers,  which include "Army of Black Sea". The series Regimental Registers includes records of regimental marriages  that have never been indexed, and therefore don't appear in the GRO Indexes or elsewhere.

 

Thus it is POSSIBLE that there are some UNINDEXED "Army of Black Sea" marriages which would include Southern Russia.

See the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Chaplains Returns

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Chaplains_Returns

 

Cheers

Maureen

[corisande]

Thanks Maureene

 

That tip of yours led me to FmP general index, and I did find a number of marriages in Russia

 

Here for example is a query with "Russia" and 1917 - 1921 - click

 

Most are consular marriages, but a few are Army Marriages within British Lines

[sadbrewer]

On 14/07/2019 at 14:25, Maureene said:

I have now found a GRO reference for one of the above marriages, that for Bullen, in  a GRO dataset GRO ARMY MARRIAGES WITHIN BRIT. LINES 1914-1925, which I accessed on https://www.familyrelatives.com/. This set of records, with additional GRO indexes is free, but you do need to register.

 

I had a look, but could not see a record for Lillington, or Hoyle (mentioned in newspaper article)

 

There appear to be a lot of records from Constantinople, some from Batoum and Baku, but I only saw one other from Archangel, and the bride appeared to have a British name.

Cheers

Maureen

edit: two separate screen shots have joined together.

 

 

 

Things may have not turned out too badly for Leonora...I have a 1930 marriage for a Leonora Bullen to a Harald Sjostedt in Hampstead.

   In 1932 they had Haraldina F L.

   In 1935...Boris and in 1939 Victor.

  Mothers maiden name is shown as Yacyno.

 

Harald died in Bournemouth in 1973, Leonora a year later....according to a tree on Ancestry  she was born on Xmas day or Eve1902 in Vilna , Lithuania.

 

Edit...noticed this Russian Lt in the UK Archives.

 

Edited 28 September , 2019 by sadbrewer

[george57l]

Ann - please check your private messages. I've PM'd you, as I have a lot more information about your (and my) grandfather.

[Matlock1418]

Thanks to the Western Front Association / Ancestry (Fold3) there is a Pension Ledger record [1/ML/4531] from 1921/22

LILLINGTON, George Robert

Hampshire Regt.,  2081 / 355102,   Sergt,

Date of discharge: 23-3-21, DoB: 1895, Marital status: Single

Address: 8 Panmure Place, Tollcross, Edingburgh

Disability: Broken dentures, attributable to service - though looks like claim was rejected

[george57l]

6 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks to the Western Front Association / Ancestry (Fold3) there is a Pension Ledger record [1/ML/4531] from 1921/22

LILLINGTON, George Robert

Hampshire Regt.,  2081 / 355102,   Sergt,

Date of discharge: 23-3-21, DoB: 1895, Marital status: Single

Address: 8 Panmure Place, Tollcross, Edingburgh

Disability: Broken dentures, attributable to service - though looks like claim was rejected

 

Matlock1418,

 

Thanks for this info. I have no idea what the source referenced actually is, but setting aside the mis-spelling of Edinburgh (not Edingburgh) which is merely a transcription error somewhere along the way, there is a far more serious anomaly here.

 

At the time when my grandfather, George Robert Lillington, was resident in Edinburgh, he was married, not single.  Something does not add up. But the date of the claim itself may explain things - I am assuming the claim is 1921/22 - but perhaps not?

 

(Perhaps PM me if you have the patience to educate me as to the source - WFA/Ancestry - and whether original documents are viewable? Thanks.)

Edited 27 December , 2019 by george57l