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Travel to France in early 1916


Big D

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Arthur B Oldham 26551 was captured at Guillemont on 23rd July 1916. He was with C company, 19th Battalion, Manchester Regiment His medal card shows that he did not get the 15 star, so he travelled to France after 31st Dec 1915. By various long winded means I have established that he enlisted in Manchester early to mid July 1915 . The 19th Battalion left Manchester for training in Lincs in April 1915 and eventually travelled to France in November 1915 through Southampton. Therefore Arthur caught up with the battalion in France some time between early January 1916 and early June 1916. I know that during that period there were several contingents arrived in France, destined for the same battalion via the Infantry Base Depot at Etaples. I have the battalion battle history but would like to establish which of the various battles Arthur took part in, or was he in fact captured during the course of his first battle. Are there any shipping records for cross channel in that period, or anything else that could narrow down when he arrived in France?

 

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Morning BigD,

I think your dates make sense for enlistment and arrival in France.  Suspect he will have initially have been posted to 26th Reserve Battalion for training in UK and posted to 19th in France.

The Battalion took Glatz Redoubt on 1st July, when the 16th - 18th Bttns went through to Montauban. The 19th also fought for Trones Wood on 8th July (need to check date) and it was then decimated at Guillemont on 23rd.  You should join Manchester Forum to find out more.

Tim

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Tim, Thank you

Yes I agree about the 26th reserve and I assume he was posted from Etaples, I have the battalion history and have managed to reconstruct in detail the debacle at Guillemont on 23rd July 1916 when Arthur was captured along with 125 other men (the majority from C company) and 3 officers. My problem is that I do not know when  Arthur  actually reached the front. I suspect it was 9th July 1916 (there was certainly an influx of 89 men on that day). However I have evidence that some who enlisted about the same time entered France in January and died at the front with 19th in Jan and Feb, so it is possible he got there as early as January and therefore took part in the Montaubon attack on 1st July and the Trones Wood on 9th July. The only way I can think of to find out is to find his channel crossing date.

Dave

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Quote

The only way I can think of to find out is to find his channel crossing date.

That may not help - men could often spend weeks or months in France before joining the battalion at the front. Going to France as a draft on a specific date doesn't always mean he arrived at the front with the same men.

Craig

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Craig, thank you. I agree if he crossed say in Jan or Feb. However, if he was in the contingent that I know crossed 26th June, I could conclude that he was captured in his first action.

Dave

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Based on my analysis of casualties, Service, Pension & SWB records for 17th Battalion, I estimate Arthur was posted to the 19th Bttn before Montauban.  You could search adjoining records for Service Numbers up and down, to find a likely draft of men posted to the Battalion on a given date.

Going back to the 17th Bttn, I did quite a lot research on the drafts arriving after Montauban.  They were generally later numbers and many arrived from other Regiments. The drafts were attached to the Manchesters, but not posted and given the Regimental number until 1st September see Royal Berkshire Regiment.

It's difficult to be certain of anything without a Service / Pension Record.  Arthur may have been doing a job at Etaples for months and not posted until mid July.  This would be a remote prospect though.

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Tim, thank you for that. I have already searched the  numbers up and down either side of Arthur. (26500 to 26600) because I assumed that some pattern may come out of it. Unfortunately no because there is very little info there.  Only 36 of those numbers lead to Medal Cards for Manchester Regiment.  Those 36 all  enlisted in the first 3 weeks of June 1915. 3 of them have service papers available, but they are uninformative  because 2 of those went to India in Feb 1916 and the third did not go to France till 1917. Of the remaining 33, 3 were discharged in UK in early 1916 without going abroad.  Of the remaining 30, three travelled to France with the 19th Battalion in early November (that was5 months after enlistment),   5 travelled to France in the third week of December 1915 (6-7 months after enlisting). Of the remaining 22 all gained the British and Victory medals (but no Star),  Of those 22, 3 were captured on 23rd July and 2 were killed , so those 5 must have travelled to France in the first 6 months of 1916. For the remaining 17? They enlisted in June 1915, they survived the war and they travelled abroad after 31st December 1915.

I have found one  of Arthur's co PoWs (Manchester Regiment) (in another number sequence) who enlisted in April 1915, arrived France 24th June 1916 and was captured with Arthur at Guillemont 23rd July 1916

From this I conclude that basically anything was possible. Some men enlisted and travelled within 5 months, others took longer than a year and no doubt several of the remaining 17 above travelled between January and June 1916.

I guess this one really is a brick wall.

Thanks to everyone for trying

Dave

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Good afternoon Dave,

The thing that amazes me is I have never seen or heard anybody mention that sure a role was taken going onboard the ship and then surely another one taken at disembarkation or just surely afterwards.

We know about Pvt Eccles and his embarkation from Folkstone who as a number near Private Oldham, just a shame his service record didn't survive.

Cheers Roger.

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On further investigation I have been studying the other PoWs who were captured on the same day as Arthur. In addition to all the other Manchester Regiment men (about whom I can find virtually nothing because none of their service papers survived) I have found that two of his fellow PoWs from other regiments have their service records  available. One is from Royal Fusiliers and one from 2nd Yorkshires. I already knew that a large contingent of Royal Fusiliers and 2nd Yorkshires were transferred to the 19th Manchesters in early July 1915 just before the battle. The Royal Fusilier enlisted on 11.12.15,entered France on 2/7/16 and was posted to the 19th Manchesters (I assume from Etaples) on 12/7/16. He was captured at Guillemont 23/7/16.The 2nd Yorks man enlisted 9/7/15 and WENT INTO THE RESERVE (no pay) FROM WHERE HE WAS MOBILISED ON 26/1/16, entered France on 16/6/16 and was posted to 19th Manchesters on 11/7/16 (I assume from Etaples).

I was not aware of the apparently "dormant spell" in the reserve before mobilisation. Could this have happened to my man Arthur who enlisted in mid June 1915?. Incidentally that was just over a month BEFORE his 18th birthday. Could he do that or did he lie about his age?

Dave

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