Casualty Clearing Stations/Medical Services around Armentieres/Perenchies October 1914

[Cymroerioederioed]

Hi,

I am trying to discover what may have happened to my grandfather who I believe was wounded in the 3rd Battalion Rifle Brigade attack on Perenchies on 18th October 1914. He was severely wounded (GSW) and was shipped back to Britain around 25/26 October 1914 before being discharged unfit for further service in April 1917 (from Northants Regiment Home Service Garrison Regiment)  from this injury. His surviving service records (on ancestry) have no casualty records within them so I am having to work this out from first principle.

 

If anyone in the forum can help suggest how I should go about doing so it will be much appreciated.

 

Thank you in anticipation

 

Best Regards

 

Alun

[TEW]

I'd start with the 6th Division medical services diary (ADMS), Ancestry have it at;

 

6th Division ADMS

 

It's an awkward one that runs backwards, so use left scroll arrow to go forward. I had a quick look and it doesn't look very informative. No printed up 'Medical Arrangements' that make life easy.

 

I also spotted some DADMS sheets included in the diary but what with slow connection and the backwards run I can't say if they have DADMS for Oct 1914. That would be the diary for the Assistant's deputy.

 

Also worth chasing up would be the 3 field ambulance diaries, they are 16, 17 and 18 FAs.

 

Ancestry have these as well, to find them I would find the ancestry diary search page and just enter the date required and put 1602 in the keyword box. This will find 16 and 17 FAs. 18 FA comes under 1603 in keyword box.

 

I usually also try to check the battalion, brigade and division diaries to get a feel for their positions, movements, objectives, plan B, maps, or other orders that may pin down the closest aid post or collecting station to the man's movements.

 

Normally, I'd provide links but my present slow connection and iPad makes it awkward.

 

See how you get on with the above and reply later.

TEW

Edited 3 September , 2016 by TEW

[clk]

Hi Alun,

 

In the first instance I think that TEWs approach of trying to establish which medical units were deployed where has to be best. Failing that, as a long shot, I did wonder if it would be worth looking at the following men, to see if a] they have surviving service records, or b] their Soldiers' Effects records (which sometimes mention specific places of death such as a CCS) might enable you to establish a possible evacuation chain.

 

 

Regards

Chris

[TEW]

Alun,

 

Can you give his name and number? You may have looked but he could have something extra on findmypast.

 

Also, his service record is worth a look by others as there may be an abbreviated unit that you could have missed - a CCS, FA, Hospital, Ambulance train etc.

 

It also sounds odd to be wounded Oct 1914 with Rifle Brigade but not be discharged until April 1917 from a different regiment.

 

TEW

Edited 2 September , 2016 by TEW

[Cymroerioederioed]

Thanks All

Appreciate the help & guidance - quite a few trails here for me to go detective on.

 

I posted this under the "Soldiers thread" on the 24th August which has more detail on my grandfather.

 

Rifleman WB Hughes - 3 Battalion Rifle Brigade 1914

 

I am a completely new member of the forum. Absolute novice!

 

i am trying to research my GF Rifleman William B Hughes (reg No 5242) who served in 3 Battalion Rifle Brigade in 1913-14.

I have so far obtained his service records via ancestry, the Reg War Diary from NA and read the war diary of CW Arnold who served in same regiment in 1914 (from amazon).

 

My GF served in France from 8 Sept - 25 October. He is shown back on home service from 26 Oct 14 to April 1917 when he was discharged medically unfit.

He received a GSW to back and is shown as 1/2 incapacity (whatever that means) when discharged at Warley. He served in a Northants Regt Home Service Garrison Battalion at time of discharge. He is on the SWB list K/457?

 

I am trying to establish which actions he saw service in in Sept/Oct 1914 and which one he was most likely wounded in. I have a story from the family of him being wounded during an attack and having to crawl back to his lines at night. Don't know how true this is. I would also be very interested in any suggestions on how to find out how his recovery in Blighty happened - not sure where even to begin searching for this?

 

My next move is to visit the Hants Archives and Regimental Museum in Winchester before hopefully visiting the appropriate battlefields next year.

 

Any information/guidance/thoughts from forum members will be much appreciated.

 

Thanks in anticipation

 

Further reading of the 3/RB War Diary has led me to the conclusion it may have been the offensive action at Perenchies where he was wounded.

 

I am very intruiged by the long delay between his wounding and discharge in 1917 via the Northants Garrison Battalion (HS). My family memories are that his injury continued to limit him though the rest of his life - my grandmother used to describe it as having had his shoulder blade shot away.

 

So thanks again - I will carry on the detective work and will hopefully return with news in a wee while.

 

In meantime all other thoughts/ideas/suggestions from the forum are very much welcomed and appreciated.

 

All the best

 

Alun

 

 

Alun

 

[TEW]

Alun

 

I did find and read your other posts on Hughes last night and found his service record on findmypast. It does seem odd to be wounded Oct 1914 and then discharged in April 1917 with a ½ incapacity (this means a 50% disability and therefore relates to how much his pension paid out).

 

I'm looking at the Medical Diaries at present; 3rd Rifle Brigade was in the 6th Division, the 6th Division had an Assistant Director Medical Services (ADMS) who was in charge of the medical arrangements. The link for Oct 1914 is in post 2. The writing is poor but does give some locations for the field ambulances and what type of post they established.

 

As a real bonus the same diary includes the Assistant Director's deputy's diary (DADMS), October starts HERE, the writing is better and appears to be more informative. Again, you have to work backwards using left scroll arrow. There are lists of named wounded officers in the remarks column along with a total number for ORs more or less day by day. Casualties for the 18th Oct seem to be 238 Ors with 3 officers of the 3rd RB. But as an example they also had 432 ORs as casualties on the 21st Oct, 89 ORs on the 23rd, 180 ORs on 24th, and 247 Ors on 25th Oct.

 

I see you're not 100% certain he was wounded on the 18th but he definitely arrived back in the UK on the 26th Oct.

 

The DADMS diary does state that wounded to be evacuated to ARMENTIERES clearing hospital at BAILEUL (probably No. 2 CCS) and that the MO of the 3rd RB had also been wounded late in the afternoon of the 18th.

 

The dairies for the 3 field ambulances for Oct 1914 as below; As there seems to be a brigade connection to the FAs it seems likely that 17 FA were dealing with 3rd RB.

 

NB, these run in the correct order not backwards like the previous.

 

16th FA

 

17th FA. There are a lot of appendices with this diary, notes etc that may need reading through.

 

18th FA

 

You may want to have a look at the 17th Brigade HQ diaries, this will give an overview of movements/dispositions of the battalions in the 17th IB including the 3rd RB. They have an operation order for the 18th Oct, Paragraph 3 gives the objectives for the 3rd RB. And a sketch map showing the positions of the 3rd RB

 

Lost of appendices to look at as well.

 

TEW 

[Cymroerioederioed]

Thanks TEW

You have certainly given me enough to chew on for a while.

The sketch map & officers notes from the day are truly fascinating.

I can now try to follow the field ambulance trail and casualty records to see if they take me anywhere...

I will visit Winchester archives before Xmas so hopefully they'll give me some insights too.

I will keep you posted of developments!

All the best

 

Alun

[Hywyn]

Alun

 

I have nil to further this particular query of yours.

 

In wondering where William was from (my interests being primarily in the North) I had a quick look. In case you haven't got the info and that it may be of interest to you the Absent Voters List for 109 High Street, Penydarren has Thomas Hughes as 11264 10th South Wales Borderers. William would have been discharged before the AVL compilation

[Cymroerioederioed]

Thanks Hywyn,

Thats a new line of enquiry altogether. I am assuming that Thomas is Willaim's younger brother and so joined up later - which would fit with the service battalion 10th of the SWB. Off to ancestry I will pop! Thanks very much indeed. Will advise of developments.

 

Best Regards

 

Alun