Time Served Territorials

[10Div]

While examining the medal rolls of a number of TF battalions I have seen a number of soldiers released on the termination of their engagement. Where these men liable to be conscripted later in the war when conscription was introduced and is there evidence that they were?

 

10Div

 

 

[ss002d6252]

31 minutes ago, 10Div said:

While examining the medal rolls of a number of TF battalions I have seen a number of soldiers released on the termination of their engagement. Where these men liable to be conscripted later in the war when conscription was introduced and is there evidence that they were?

 

10Div

 

 

Yes and Yes.

Under the initial period of the Military Service Act 1916 they were not liable for conscription however after a few months they introduced an amendment that made them liable for conscription. Many men were taken back in to the army.

T.F. men in general would only have been released as Time Ex. between August 15 and June 16.

Craig

[John_Hartley]

Definitely liable for conscription.

 

Quite a number of the NCOs of 6th Manchesters rejoined, rather than be conscripted. It meant they got something like 4 weeks leave, before returning to their unit at their prior rank. Had they been conscripted, it would have been as a private and they could have been sent anywhere.

[ss002d6252]

5 minutes ago, John_Hartley said:

Definitely liable for conscription.

 

Quite a number of the NCOs of 6th Manchesters rejoined, rather than be conscripted. It meant they got something like 4 weeks leave, before returning to their unit at their prior rank. Had they been conscripted, it would have been as a private and they could have been sent anywhere.

 

If they volunteered to continue service (if I remember correctly without going and checking) there was also a £15 gratuity.

Craig

[mancpal]

My great uncle was released as time served in early '16. He'd served in Egypt, Gallipoli and France so had seen some action. As conscription was being introduced he volunteered for the RFC we believe to avoid further trench warfare. Unfortunately for him, he qualified as a pilot and ended up getting shot down twice in little over a month (survived both with only a GSW to thigh). So much for the supposed safety of an airfield far away from the front line.

 

Simon

 

[ss002d6252]

8 minutes ago, mancpal said:

My great uncle was released as time served in early '16. He'd served in Egypt, Gallipoli and France so had seen some action. As conscription was being introduced he volunteered for the RFC we believe to avoid further trench warfare. Unfortunately for him, he qualified as a pilot and ended up getting shot down twice in little over a month (survived both with only a GSW to thigh). So much for the supposed safety of an airfield far away from the front line.

 

Simon

 

I've seen men volunteer for the navy in order to get a choice and presumably try and keep away from the trenches.

Craig

[researchingreg]

One of my uncles was released after 4 years service in the RAMC TF on 17 November 1917, but volunteered the same day to join the ASC. I assume to serve in a unit he wanted to serve in rather than waiting to be conscripted.

[mancpal]

Craig,

Think that was my dad's idea when it came to national service. He was discharged from the navy after 6 weeks when a shadow on his lung was discovered. He then proceeded to play rugby until he was 42 and cricket until 70. He's now 89 and shows no sign of surrendering yet. The Navys loss perhaps,

 

Simon

[Retlaw]

3 hours ago, mancpal said:

Craig,

Think that was my dad's idea when it came to national service. He was discharged from the navy after 6 weeks when a shadow on his lung was discovered. He then proceeded to play rugby until he was 42 and cricket until 70. He's now 89 and shows no sign of surrendering yet. The Navys loss perhaps,

 

Simon

 

 

They did that with me in 1948, I could have avoided it till I'd finished my apprenticeship, but didn't, finished up at Padgate, xrayed and discharged within 2 weeks, they said T B as a child, would not be able to serve abroad,  went to docs, he examined me and laughed but sent me to a specialist, he xrayed me, examined me,and a month later my own Doc said they can find nowt wrong with you, I went on to serve 30 years in the Fire Brigade

Edited 1 September , 2016 by Retlaw

[Derek Black]

8 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

T.F. men in general would only have been released as Time Ex. between August 15 and June 16.

Craig

Why is that, why not earlier?

Cheers,
Derek.

[ss002d6252]

5 hours ago, Derek Black said:

Why is that, why not earlier?

Cheers,
Derek.

Once war broke out service was automatically extended by one year.

 

If you were due for discharge on, for example 8 August 14, then your discharge was halted until 8 August 15.

 

By June 16 the military service act had halted the discharges again.

 

Craig

[Derek Black]

6 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Once war broke out service was automatically extended by one year.

 

If you were due for discharge on, for example 8 August 14, then your discharge was halted until 8 August 15.

 

By June 16 the military service act had halted the discharges again.

 

Craig

Craig,

 

Thanks for that.

 

Cheers,
Derek.

[10Div]

Many thanks this clears up a number of issues. Although I've found a number of soldiers who terminating their engagement in 1915 - 1916 I've yet to positively identify any that have re-enlisted later in the war.

 

Regards

 

Steve (10Div)

[tullybrone]

On 1 September 2016 at 21:10, researchingreg said:

One of my uncles was released after 4 years service in the RAMC TF on 17 November 1917, but volunteered the same day to join the ASC. I assume to serve in a unit he wanted to serve in rather than waiting to be conscripted.

 

 

Hi,

 

Are you sure of the date?

 

I would have thought if "expiration of engagement" date had been as late as November 1917 he would've automatically continued in service "for the duration" under the terms of The Military Service Act?

 

Steve Y

[bill24chev]

On 01/09/2016 at 20:49, ss002d6252 said:

I've seen men volunteer for the navy in order to get a choice and presumably try and keep away from the trenches.

Craig

I wonder how many ended back in the trenches with 63rd Division

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

 

 

Hi,

 

Are you sure of the date?

 

I would have thought if "expiration of engagement" date had been as late as November 1917 he would've automatically continued in service "for the duration" under the terms of The Military Service Act?

 

Steve Y

I have seen some men released late in the war where the medal rolls show them as Time Ex - not exactly sure why.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

4 minutes ago, bill24chev said:

I wonder how many ended back in the trenches with 63rd Division

Good point - I'd not thought about that.

By that point though where recruits from the 63rd coming via the navy or where the army providing the  men ? ( I know nothing about recruitment for the 63rd)

Craig

[tullybrone]

Thanks Craig.

 

Either a "loophole" in the MSA or perhaps even a clerical error on the Medal Roll eh?

 

Steve Y

[ss002d6252]

4 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

Thanks Craig.

 

Either a "loophole" in the MSA or perhaps even a clerical error on the Medal Roll eh?

 

Steve Y

Not sure - something I always intended to check but never got around to. Don't think it's a medal roll error as I've seen enough of them to discount that in my mind.

Craig

[tullybrone]

Hi Craig,

 

The thought has just occurred that perhaps the TF soldiers had also reached the age limit for continued service?

 

Steve

[ss002d6252]

5 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

Hi Craig,

 

The thought has just occurred that perhaps the TF soldiers had also reached the age limit for continued service?

 

Steve

Possible but as far as I'm aware the MSA never set an upper limit for men who were already serving  - they continued to serve until no longer needed. I suppose it is possible that those men who where held on and got too old were released as time-expired as the reason when they were no longer needed. Probably need to see some to check.

Even these men may not have been safe from further service when they upped the age limits for conscription later in the war.

Craig

Edited 4 September , 2016 by ss002d6252

[researchingreg]

24 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

 

 

Hi,

 

Are you sure of the date?

 

I would have thought if "expiration of engagement" date had been as late as November 1917 he would've automatically continued in service "for the duration" under the terms of The Military Service Act?

 

Steve Y

Steve

Yes I am sure of the date he joined the RAMC TF on the 18 Nov 1913 as a Private and was was released from service on 17 Nov 1917 (Termination of engagement). But also it says on his record that he was "Liable for further service under provision of Military Service Act 1916". So that is probably why he joined the ASC as a private (his preferred choice) on the same date.  He was later commissioned as a 2nd Lt in the ASC in June 1918 and wanted to be a regular not TF, but after serving in France and Germany was discharged in 1919 and did not become a regular.

[tullybrone]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the further clarification.

 

Interesting to see that TF authorities didn't apply the "compulsory" additional 12 months service, as per TF terms of engagement, at the end of his 4 year enlistment.

 

Steve Y

[Muerrisch]

Interesting: the man had a double jeopardy, and it didn't matter a monkey's which got him EXCEPT he managed to choose his new unit.

[ss002d6252]

30 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

Hi,

 

Thanks for the further clarification.

 

Interesting to see that TF authorities didn't apply the "compulsory" additional 12 months service, as per TF terms of engagement, at the end of his 4 year enlistment.

 

Steve Y

He may have signed up for something other than a 4 year term. AO167/13 allowed previously discharged territorials to re-enlist for 2,3 or 4 years rather than the 4 years which had previously been the only option.

Craig

Edited 4 September , 2016 by ss002d6252