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Richard G

What do you most wish for and what medals do you cherish the most?

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Richard G

Quite an interesting question.... or pair of questions.

 

Every year the DNW catalogues, Bonhams catalogues, Warwick and Warwick, Spinks et al, cover my desk and I browse them cover to cover hoping to find a DCLI officer gallantry award, yet every year I find myself scratching my head.  RFA's yes, R Fus ...lots, other London regiments by the dozen, but DCLI Bodmin (ish) based, zero..

 

Yet what I cherish the most is a little trio to a 15 year old private who lied about how old he was, made it through 3 and a quarter years of war on the Western Front, and returned home, seemingly unscathed physically.  This appeals to me as I used to teach 15 year olds, and the idea that a boy of this age like my soldier, could walk towards a hail of lead quite astonishes me... and he 1) volunteered and 2) lied to volunteer.... 

...

 

I just ask because one of our forum members mentioned in a previous post how he had spent 7 years searching for a casualty medal from each month of the war...  which rather fascinated me regarding the lengths/timescale that us collectors wait/browse/pray for, regarding cherished pieces and personal challenges.  R

 

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear Richard,

Having collected for over 30 years, I have about thirty Officer groups in my collection (although several more, including NCOs, have gone through my hands during that time).

I was fortunate not to have to start from scratch: the Officer seen at left was my grandfather, and I hold his MC, ED group of five. 

At the beginning I could not afford to subscribe to the catalogues you mention, and the medals I acquired, en passant, were bought 'on a shoe-string'. However, once secured, I always spent a great deal of effort, pestering all sorts of people and institutions, to put some background to the medals and find a photograph. Sometimes only so-called images of uncles, or a brother, or father, have come to light - but I always regard this as far better than nothing. This 'nothing' has also happened at times - even to "Keeper" groups!

I always buy books to help understand the recipient and his (or her) times better: for example, "The Calcutta Light Horse", or an expensive but often-used India Office List of 1938. A latecomer to the Internet, this has also proved invaluable: but the best method is to present one's bona fides to the recipient's family.

I normally try everything, especially in recent times (not letting expenses deter me), to acquire War Diary copies, School Registers and the like. Although sometimes bordering on an obsession, it is great fun and any finds are gleefully celebrated! Photo are put in frames and the medal group inserted: or in one case the picture of the HM Yacht of which the Officer - an amateur RNR, then RNVR - was Number One.

As it stands, most of my collection are "Keepers", my no longer having to make part-exchange deals! Having said that, my latest medal deal may well have been the last one: but the research will continue, even on the long-held Officer groups (helped by computer technology). John Tamplin once said to me, 'Research never ends'. Quite. 

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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Medaler

"What do you most wish for and what medals do you cherish the most?"

 

Not only a pair of interesting questions, but tricky ones to answer. How long have I got (LOL!!).

 

Most prized medal - no laughing please - a humble WW1 VM. Let me explain.............

 

I have spent several years now studying the 55 blokes on the village memorial where my family were living during the Great War. In addition, there are 22 other lads who are not named on it, but who could also have had that right claimed for them. So these lads are almost family in my eyes.

 

The most highly prized medal I own therefore is the VM to PO/12829 George Osman Exford of the RMLI who was lost at Jutland on HMS Queen Mary. It is the only medal I own to any of those 77 lads. The medals I would most like to own would have to be his BWM and 14-15 Star. His plaque and scroll would be highly prized too!

 

And now something to make you smile. I own the BWM to R/33846 L/Cpl G.F. Rutter of 17th Btn KRRC. He has nothing to do with "my village". Well, almost nothing. You see only 2 men of 17th KRRC were killed on that date, and they were even buried side by side. The other chap was A/20002 Frank Cooper, who is one of "my lads". That may be as close as I ever get to seeing Franks medals, and sometimes you have to be content with that.

 

Warmest regards,

Mike

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Richard G

I remember being in the auction room when they sold Sidney Godley's VC at DNW and thinking "wow, it doesn't get much better than that!".... think it hammered + commission £276k ish with his family on the front row and another VC family next to them.... but it's interesting that it's just about top of the tree in collecting and historical terms, but I don't covet it because i'd never be able to afford it (so it's not a 'realistic' prospect), I couldn't insure it and keep it at home, it's a terrific responsibility on the keeper, and it would probably sit in some bank vault if I personally owned it.  Hence, I rather like reading these stories about humble VM's and BWM's! 

 

The room went silent then.  The camera focussed on the auctioneer...  best thing I've seen sold.  But wish for it? No... Covet it.... Not really.....  (well, that might be a tiny lie)... 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9416262/Sale-of-Victoria-Cross-leaves-family-devastated.html

 

 

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Kitchener's Bugle

For me it would always be those medals to men from my home town............. without question.

 

I am a sucker for a good back story though so I take the previously mentioned points around it not necessarily being the medal or the group value/rarity but the individual story itself. 

 

I suppose if money was not an object then it would have to be one of those multi gallantry groups with lots of foreign orders and knighthoods spanning the late Victorian early 20th Century ..........so I could hang it  on the wall and glance at it incessantly.

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Ken Lees

For me it starts with family medals as the most desirable.

 

Following that, it is medals to men of the 9th King's Liverpool Regiment. Having been researching these men for almost 20 years I feel close to them and their story. Living where many of them originated, and now living where they served, suffered and, in some cases, died makes it even more important to learn as much as I can about them. As the medals are often the only tangible link to them and their service I feel honoured to be the custodian of these pieces of history. And there is little difference in that respect between a single Victory or British War Medal and a gallantry group.

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Jim Hastings

I agree, my grandfather's would be the first I'd want, not well versed in medal collecting admittedly, but a cursory look has proved unsuccessful (Gunner / Pioneer Page in my address below). Then local men I've researched,Frank Tucknott, or Reggie Divall from the Queen's Westminsters who we study with the kids at school. Interesting post, not really thought about it before, thanks. 

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dundeesown

Have to be my Grandfathers medals and then any to Dundee lads.

Gary

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Richard G

Interesting line of thought here:..

Ranking responses so far, 1 being dream ticket...

 

1) Family medals are top of the tree for almost everyone, myself included. (priceless medals, but low monetary value for most)

2) Medals to those who lived in our neighbourhoods come second...  in the houses in which perhaps we live today... (not necessarily expensive at all) Or perhaps a regiment we have links to via our past jobs? **There's some link here between male medal collectors and the way or place they earned their income...  I mentioned before, my being a teacher of teenagers, makes me covet medals to lads of their age from WW1.

3) Medals with stories... something which captures our imagination and not necessarily information 'available to us' when we bought them (medium cost typically, but perhaps remind us of books we read in our childhood/comics/war films..)

4) Then, and only then, seems to kick in the gallantry awards....  (pricey... but you nearly always know exactly what you are getting)...  Suppose this is where our hearts somewhat end, and our heads enter the fray with the word 'investment?'... 

 

If you look at the pattern above, it's clearly "all about the story" for all of us, but the story gets 100 times better when it's associated with us personally.  The medals seem to just be a connection to that 'feeling' of fascination (and pride) whether it be a £20 VM or £250,000 VC. 

 

We cherish and covet the things we can genuinely attain with the funds in our banks.  The more expensive the medals get that we own or covet, the less we subconsciously really love them, because they were bought for amazing deeds/actions.. but they 1) aren't family... and 2) very unlikely lived in our villages or streets.  Hence, we introduce the word 'investment'... 

 

Thanks guys to all who have/are contributing.  Really enjoying the responses to the 2 very difficult questions.  Kind of questions which would be great to chat about in a pub with lots of enthusiasts together. R.

 

*I suppose then and only then after all of this, a 5th category kicks in:

 

5)  The remaining VM's, BWM's, Stars, which fill 98% of the medals on the market today and which go round and round from dealer-auction-dealer in search of a home...for a collector looking for my second category!  Some never find that collector.... which explains why there are so many London regiment pairs to privates on the market... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Richard G

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Black Maria

I am not a medal collector but I did obtain a few medals in the seventies for pocket money prices . The medals I would most like to own are the ones issued

to Private 7011 William Arthur Charles Waller of 1st Loyal North Lancs , who is my Grandfather. The ones I most cherish , apart from my other Grandfather's

War medal and my Great uncles trio, are a War and Victory medal to a Corporal in the Royal Sussex Regt still stored in the registered envelope they were

sent in with safety pins in the ribbons and polished . I can just imagine Corporal Jefferey proudly polishing them every armistice day before he pins them on

to go to the local war memorial. The other one is a 1914 (Mons) star to a private in the 1st Queens Regt , I have put a ribbon on it with a copy of the bar .

The reason I like it so much is that I am very interested in the 1914 period of the war and it's the only 1914 star I own and also because of the famous

photos of the 1st Queens Regt taken before they left for France and the remnants of about thirty men who remained in November 1914.

 

 

Queens forum.jpeg

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Medaler
2 hours ago, Richard G said:

The more expensive the medals get that we own or covet, the less we subconsciously really love them

 

Not sure I agree with that, but I have to step outside WW1 to illustrate it. I am lucky enough to own a Waterloo, which I kind of view as the foundation stone of all my interest in military history. The fate of Europe for a century, all decided on a single battlefield 2 miles long and a mile wide. I have been to that field half a dozen times and understand that battle better than any other I have ever read about. Maybe we need another category for "first love"?

 

Expensive can be loved too - but I don't have the money for enough of them!

 

Mike

 

 

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Malcolm Linham

1/   Locating the remaining 22 sets of medals issued to the extended Linham family. Nothing but trio's and pairs but important to me.

      I have one pair and another family member has another, the Gloucestershire's museum hold a pair.

 

2/   To prise my maternal grandfathers trio off my elder brother where they stuck in a drawer unloved and get them properly mounted and displayed.

 

Malcolm 

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ralphjd

Malcolm. Nail on the head re 2/ my paternal g/fathers QSA/KSA  and trio from my cousin where they are in the same boat as yours  - stuck in a drawer . Ralph.

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Medaler

I have been invited to share this list of one of my completed collecting themes, so this is not one cherished medal but 52. All of them are BWM's, and all of them are casualties. They are also all badged to different units and all Western Front. This collection appeals to me on so many different levels, and I hope you others can see the merit in what I have created. It took me about 7 years to put it all together and I hope I haven't wasted my time!

 

Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders - 2nd Btn 26/08/1914
Grenadier Guards - 2nd Btn 20/09/1914
Wiltshire Regiment - 1st Btn 24/10/1914
4th Dragoon Guards (Royal Irish) 01/11/1914
Queens Own Cameron Highlanders - 1st Btn 22/12/1914
Essex Regiment - 2nd Btn 03/01/1915
Devonshire Regiment - 2nd Btn 07/02/1915
Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry - 2nd Btn 20/03/1915
Kings Own Scottish Borderers - 2nd Btn 20/04/1915
Northumberland Fusiliers - 1st/5th Battalion 26/05/1915
East Lancashire Regiment - 1st Btn 26/06/1915
Rifle Brigade - 9th Btn 12/07/1915
North Staffordshire Regiment - 8th Btn 21/08/1915
Royal Sussex Regiment - 2nd Btn 25/09/1915
Leicestershire Regiment - 1st/4th Btn 13/10/1915
Notts & Derby Regiment - 11th Btn 20/11/1915
Kings Royal Rifle Corps - 8th Btn 07/12/1915
Seaforth Highlanders - 8th Btn 20/01/1916
Somerset Light Infantry - 6th Btn 12/02/2016
Royal Scots Fusiliers - 1st Btn 27/03/1916
Royal Engineers - 26th Field Coy 09/04/1916
Suffolk Regiment - 9th Btn 15/05/1916
Middlesex Regiment - 1st Btn 14/06/1916
London Regiment - 1st/13th Kensington Btn 01/07/1916
Royal Warwickshire Regiment - 1st/8th Btn 27/08/1916
London Regiment - 18th Btn - London Irish Rifles 15/09/1916
Lancashire Fusiliers - 2nd Btn 22/10/1916
East Yorkshire Regiment - 13th Btn 13/11/1916
Royal Berkshire Regiment - 1st/4th 04/12/1916
Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) - 68th Btn 07/01/1917
Royal Fusiliers - 2nd Btn 06/02/1917
Loyal North Lancs - A Coy 1st Btn 07/03/1917
Royal Field Artillery - "C" Bty - 71st Bde 09/04/1917
The Kings Royal Lancaster Regiment - 8th Btn 12/05/1917
Border Regt - 8th Btn 06/06/1917
Scots Guards - 1st Bn 31/07/1917
Manchester Regiment - 2nd/7th Btn 17/08/1917
Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) - 9th Btn  20/09/1917
Coldstream Guards - 2nd Btn 09/10/1917
Gordon Highlanders - 5th Btn 20/11/1917
West Yorkshire Regt - 2nd/7th Btn 02/12/1917
Worcestershire Regiment - 3rd Btn 14/01/1918
Cheshire Regiment - "D" Coy - 10th Btn 07/02/1918
Royal Army Medical Corps 28/03/1918
Kings Liverpool Regt - 4th Btn 17/04/1918
Royal Scots - 1st/7th (medal named to old unit H.L.I. No 7369) 25/05/1918
Royal Highlanders - Black Watch - 8th Btn 24/06/1918
South Lancashire Regiment - 1st/5th Btn 13/07/1918
The Queens (Royal West Surrey Regt) 7th Btn 23/08/1918
Army Service Corps - Killed with Royal Irish Fusiliers - 9th Btn 30/09/1918
Lincolnshire Regiment - 1st/5th Btn 13/10/1918
East Surrey Regiment - 1st Btn 06/11/1918
Edited by Medaler
Detail added

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trajan

Mike,

 

That is quite an achievement! I remember you telling me about it, and it is fascinating to see it all listed down!

 

Julian

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Staffsyeoman

As to prices on medals (looks around to await the tide of opprobrium from the "medals should never be sold" contingent) - the first serious book I read on medal collecting in the 1970s, published in the 70s, not one of the older classics, said a perfect place at a reasonable price for a collector to start was Waterloo Medals. O tempora.. 

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Medaler
50 minutes ago, Staffsyeoman said:

As to prices on medals (looks around to await the tide of opprobrium from the "medals should never be sold" contingent) - the first serious book I read on medal collecting in the 1970s, published in the 70s, not one of the older classics, said a perfect place at a reasonable price for a collector to start was Waterloo Medals. O tempora.. 

 

Ha!

As I have said before, in the early 70's you could pick up a Waterloo for £25.00. The only problem was that I never had £25.00 !! (still at school and on "pocket money" in those days).

 

My first ever purchase was a WW1 pair - the price? = £2.50 !! - And yes, I still have them - still treasured and still loved. That is where all this started for me, must have been 1974 (ish) when I was about 13.

 

Mike

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Medaler
1 hour ago, trajan said:

Mike,

 

That is quite an achievement! I remember you telling me about it, and it is fascinating to see it all listed down!

 

Julian

 

Hi Julian,

 

I hope all is well with you and yours.

 

Yes, sorry, I do go on a bit about this little "sub-collection" of mine! What can I say? - They are truly loved and treasured, and I still think that the concept was one of my best ideas. The education I have had from the research (still on-going) has been a great starting point for learning about WW1. I also have admit to having a bit of a smug grim because as collections go, its complete! - How many of us collectors can say that? - Not even Lord Ashcroft! (would have inserted gif for cheeky grin but couldn't find one).

 

Mike

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear Mike, dear Richard and GWFs,

Cherished group? My first serious acquisition (a straight exchange for Imperial German items), was in 1980. This was a group of nine: 15 Trio (Lieut F. E. Elliot, RGA/Capt), IGS Waziristan 1921-24 (Capt., RA), 1939-45 Star, Def, War, 35 Jubilee, 37 Coronation, and the going price (high for those days) was 90 Pounds.

The attraction was his RFC service (Obs) (wounded 1917), and Indian Mountain Artillery service. The comparative rarity of the last-mentioned was not apparent to me at the time, nor did I have the ready money - as many collectors will understand.

I still have the group: a real Keeper! Freddie Elliot researched beautifully, even with the limited possibilities available back then. I found out all sorts of things, including tiger-hunting manuscripts, and latterly his diaries (unfortunately now in cold storage after the closure of the RA Museum), as well as photos of a smart-looking Major Elliot, wearing his medals.

Elliot latterly briefly commanded a Mountain Regiment, but was called upon to retire and did so on an Indian Pension. Subsequently King's, then Queen's Messenger...

But to turn to Mike's collection of BWMs to KiA for every month of the war:- 

Obviously a dedicated effort, and Well Done Mike - but does each represent a broken group, or are some parts of groups? Personally I try to have everything complete, and possess only one broken group (missing the Victory Medal to Capt. E. P. Yeates.). Having said that, I was impressed by the plethora of British regiments behind the ever-advancing dates...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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Medaler
1 minute ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

But to turn to Mike's collection of BWMs to KiA for every month of the war:- 

Obviously a dedicated effort, and Well Done Mike - but does each represent a broken group, or are some parts of groups? Personally I try to have everything complete, and possess only one broken group (missing the Victory Medal to Capt. E. P. Yeates.). Having said that, I was impressed by the plethora of British regiments behind the ever-advancing dates...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

Hi Kim - Hope you are well,

 

The majority of them were bought as singles, offered for sale individually. I do search for their partners on a regular basis. Several of them were pairs (and I have the "partners" filed away. Some were broken trio's - "partners" similarly filed, some were full trio's (others filed). In one spectacular case, one is part of a trio and plaque together with his brothers pair and plaque. All the "bits" are cherished, cared for, and filed - I don't have room to display them all.

 

To be clear, I NEVER split groups, but I don't think you meant it that way. Over the years I have even managed a few "reunites". The most spectacular being a Victorian 2nd China and New Zealand to a gunner, and A Navy LSGC and Turkish Crimea (privately named). I am still looking for his "Queens" Crimea - Charles Bew HMS Highflyer if anyone has it?

 

Warmest regards,

Mike

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trajan

Coming back to the original theme (but enjoying the bits in between as well!), if I ever found my granddad's medals, then, yes, they would take pride of place in my small but slowly growing collection.

 

As it is some of you might remember that I only became interested enough in medals to collect them when I found some on sale in Turkey and paid a ridiculous price (well over the UK odds!) for them for, I suppose, nostalgic reasons... See,

I actually bought two pairs and two single BWM's at that time, and although I have acquired a few more medals (singles, pairs and trios) since then at more reasonable prices, and all of them fascinating to research, I guess the group I find the most moving and the least likely to go to another home is the pair I bought at the time in Turkey to Andrew Lorimer, 1st Seaforths, KIA at Sanniyat on 22 February 1917. GWF mate Seaforths (Marjorie) did excellent research for me to get his story, ably aided by other GWF Pals, and some of it is set out here: - 

What I find exceptionally poignant about the wee chap, from one of the less salubrious parts of Glasgow, is that he volunteered in September 1914 but was then discharged for poor eyesight in February 1915, only to be called up later and then meet his death in Mesopotamia, becoming one of the many whose grave remains unknown... 

 

Julian

 

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Medaler
20 hours ago, trajan said:

Coming back to the original theme (but enjoying the bits in between as well!), if I ever found my granddad's medals, then, yes, they would take pride of place in my small but slowly growing collection.

 

As it is some of you might remember that I only became interested enough in medals to collect them when I found some on sale in Turkey and paid a ridiculous price (well over the UK odds!) for them for, I suppose, nostalgic reasons... See, e.g., http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/237270-banks-arthur-george-sb-stwd-357129-mid/#comment-2375434  I actually bought two pairs and two single BWM's at that time, and although I have acquired a few more medals (singles, pairs and trios) since then at more reasonable prices, and all of them fascinating to research, I guess the group I find the most moving and the least likely to go to another home is the pair I bought at the time in Turkey to Andrew Lorimer, 1st Seaforths, KIA at Sanniyat on 22 February 1917. GWF mate Seaforths (Marjorie) did excellent research for me to get his story, ably aided by other GWF Pals, and some of it is set out here: - http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/237494-medical-help-please-for-a-seaforth-hr/&page=1  What I find exceptionally poignant about the wee chap, from one of the less salubrious parts of Glasgow, is that he volunteered in September 1914 but was then discharged for poor eyesight in February 1915, only to be called up later and then meet his death in Mesopotamia, becoming one of the many whose grave remains unknown... 

 

Julian

 

 

Of course, it could be argued that you could have got the same type of satisfaction from researching the names on a memorial - but now you are a member of this happy band of brothers who collect, you know its not the same at all!!

 

I sincerely hope you took advantage of your trip to the UK to make a few more "investments" ?

 

Warmest regards,

Mike

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Trev2386

I've only been collecting for three years and my chosen theme is medals to my home county, The Notts and Derby Regiment. According to SWMBO, I've spent too much on some of them! Pride of place has, until recently, been a double gallantry DCM. However, a couple of weeks a go, my eye caught a single 1914 star on a well known auction site. Nothing special, ambulance driver in the ASC. But it was the name that attracted my attention, my mothers maiden name. After a little bit of research, I realised that the recipient was my great uncle. It's just a simple, single star, which I may have paid over the odds for, but that didn't matter. That medal now sits in pride of place in my collection. In fact, my home!!

 

Trev

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear Trev,

That's the spirit! Never mind about paying Over The Odds for the 14 Star: in a few months that will be water under the bridge. The main thing is that you have secured a Family piece to be most treasured. Well done! I well understand this sort of thing, as you can see by the attached own Family piece...

As far as the Wish For and Cherish Most theme is concerned:-

I think that would have to be the beautifully cased group of nine to Capt George Barrett Goyder, VD (Indian Finance Department and Volunteers; IARO attd IX Lancers and General List as Asst Provost Marshal, 36 (Ulster) Div.; HG).

With the group are his two Mentioned in Despatches certificates from 1917 and 1919; and his framed Warrant (Albert, Roi des Belges) for the Belgian Order of the Crown and Croix de Guerre to Capt G. B. Goyder. Additionally, the History of the Ulster Division (Falls) lists his French Croix de Guerre: Goyder, Capt G. B., Genl. List.

The medals: 1914-15 Star (LIEUT. G. B. GOYDER.); BWM (CAPT.); Victory (CAPT.)(MiD); Defence Medal 1939-45; Delhi Durbar 1911; Indian Volunteer Officers' Decoration GVR (CAPTN., 5th PUNJAB LT. HORSE); Order of the Crown (Belg); Croix de Guerre (Belg); Croix de Guerre 1914-18 (avec etoile)(Fr).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

MC_rev_small.jpg

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Medaler
1 hour ago, Trev2386 said:

I've only been collecting for three years and my chosen theme is medals to my home county, The Notts and Derby Regiment. According to SWMBO, I've spent too much on some of them! Pride of place has, until recently, been a double gallantry DCM. However, a couple of weeks a go, my eye caught a single 1914 star on a well known auction site. Nothing special, ambulance driver in the ASC. But it was the name that attracted my attention, my mothers maiden name. After a little bit of research, I realised that the recipient was my great uncle. It's just a simple, single star, which I may have paid over the odds for, but that didn't matter. That medal now sits in pride of place in my collection. In fact, my home!!

 

Trev

 

That's the spirit Tev! - Well done. I seriously doubt you paid too much for that star, considering what it is worth to you.

The easy way to put your mind at rest is to ask how much you would want for it - There you go! - What a bargain you had!

 

Warmest regards,

Mike

 

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