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Remembered Today:

9th Royal Scots


alistair_m

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On 8/29/2016 at 05:39, PPCLI said:

Hi Neill,

 

I am fairly confident that the photo is indeed Captain Dudgeon. I have set it against a named photo of him taken from a local newspaper (see below). It looks like this was taken at the same location.

 

Best wishes,

 

Stuart

 

Capt Dudgeon.jpg

 

Thanks Stuart.  

 

 

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Tremendous work all! I've let ScotlandsPeople know, though they may have no interest.

Seems Robert Maxwell Dudgeon was an interesting soul: South African war with Cameron Highrs,  Adjt 9th RS, CO 16th Royal West Kents, 9th Black Watch and 1st Camerons, Brig-Gen of 51st Inf Bde, Governor HMP Edinburgh, HM Inspector of Constabulary for Scotland...

This is the best photograph I have seen of him.

Edited by Neill Gilhooley
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As a follow-up to Neill's information in post #27, here is RM Dudgeon's military career steps from the gradation list of officers in the 4Q1919 Army List: http://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/pageturner.cfm?id=88024915&mode=fullsize

 

This is his Record of War Services also from the 4Q1919 Army List: http://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/pageturner.cfm?id=87960316&mode=fullsize

 

Hope this may be of interest.

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20 hours ago, gordon92 said:

As a follow-up to Neill's information in post #27, here is RM Dudgeon's military career steps from the gradation list of officers in the 4Q1919 Army List: http://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/pageturner.cfm?id=88024915&mode=fullsize

 

This is his Record of War Services also from the 4Q1919 Army List: http://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/pageturner.cfm?id=87960316&mode=fullsize

 

Hope this may be of interest.

 

There are some good photos of the Dandy Ninth here:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/14684508@N02/albums/72157647159009182

 

 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

There are some good photos of the Dandy Ninth here:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/14684508@N02/albums/72157647159009182

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

 

Excellent photo albums.  I enjoyed browsing through them.

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They are indeed.  Many thanks for posting. 

 

I note that there are photos of the commissioned officers wearing full hair sporrans with a metal cantle in several photos.  Does anyone have a decent photo of the sporran cantle.....so as the features/engraving/badges on it (if any) can be made out?  I haven't come across it before. 

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18 hours ago, Ron Abbott said:

They are indeed.  Many thanks for posting. 

 

I note that there are photos of the commissioned officers wearing full hair sporrans with a metal cantle in several photos.  Does anyone have a decent photo of the sporran cantle.....so as the features/engraving/badges on it (if any) can be made out?  I haven't come across it before. 

 

Here is a half decent photo of the OR's sporran where the thistle badge can be discerned.  I do not have a good photo of the sergeant's and officers' sporran.

 

9thvbRoyalScotsc1902-1908_zps2bf95af5.jp

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  • 3 weeks later...

Good picture Mike. Is this another brigade ensemble at camp?

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7 hours ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

Good picture Mike. Is this another brigade ensemble at camp?

It looks to be, Neill.  Unfortunately, I do not have location.  Dating would be in the 1902-1908 period.

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  • 1 month later...

There is a file of excellent Dandy Ninth photos here (by a poster with whom I am associated), some from training camps shortly before the war: https://www.flickr.com/photos/14684508@N02/albums/72157647159009182

 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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  • 5 months later...

 

On 25/08/2016 at 11:16, Neill Gilhooley said:

This was on ebay a while back (hence watermark):

Sgts_Bruntsfield_School

I've been a bit slow in recognising this photo as one reproduced in the Dispatch:

"Sergeants of the 2/9 Royal Scots 
The names of the group are (from left to right):- 
Back Row :- Sergeants W. Gibb, Grant, Meikle, Stevenson, Dougall, Johnstone, McIntosh, Ross, Tait, Bain, Carson, Scott, Bolas, W. Brown, Whytock, Stevens, Mills and Fleeting. 
Middle Row :- Pipe-Major Porteous, Sergeants Haldane, Thomson, Kirk, D. Gibb, R. Brown, Low, Hogg, Stalker, Stewart, Bandmaster Laubach, Sergeants Manclark, Daniels, Calder, Glen and Drum-Major Small. 
Front Row :- Sergeant Gammie, Company Quartermaster-Sergeant McCorquodale, Company Sergeant-Major McKeen, Quartermaster-Sergeant Couper, Sergeant-Major Steven, Company Sergeant-Major McLauchlan, Company Quartermaster-Sergeants Jamieson, Ruxton and Sergeant Loudon."
Edinburgh Evening Dispatch, 29/5/15 


However I count 10 seated and 9 names... It might be assumed Sergeant-Major Steven is seated in the middle, meaning the lad on the left is unknown? Anyone good on CQMS etc?

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On 11 November 2016 at 11:26, Neill Gilhooley said:

Oh - found it!

9th-Royal-Scots-WW1.jpg

 

The man with Dudgeon is the "Acting Sergeant Major" (TF equivalent of a regular battalions warrant officer - sergeant major - today's RSM).

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10 hours ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

 

I've been a bit slow in recognising this photo as one reproduced in the Dispatch:

"Sergeants of the 2/9 Royal Scots 
The names of the group are (from left to right):- 
Back Row :- Sergeants W. Gibb, Grant, Meikle, Stevenson, Dougall, Johnstone, McIntosh, Ross, Tait, Bain, Carson, Scott, Bolas, W. Brown, Whytock, Stevens, Mills and Fleeting. 
Middle Row :- Pipe-Major Porteous, Sergeants Haldane, Thomson, Kirk, D. Gibb, R. Brown, Low, Hogg, Stalker, Stewart, Bandmaster Laubach, Sergeants Manclark, Daniels, Calder, Glen and Drum-Major Small. 
Front Row :- Sergeant Gammie, Company Quartermaster-Sergeant McCorquodale, Company Sergeant-Major McKeen, Quartermaster-Sergeant Couper, Sergeant-Major Steven, Company Sergeant-Major McLauchlan, Company Quartermaster-Sergeants Jamieson, Ruxton and Sergeant Loudon."
Edinburgh Evening Dispatch, 29/5/15 


However I count 10 seated and 9 names... It might be assumed Sergeant-Major Steven is seated in the middle, meaning the lad on the left is unknown? Anyone good on CQMS etc?

 

 

Does anyone know the full name, number or even the first initial for Pipe-Major Porteous?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Ron

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12 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The man with Dudgeon is the "Acting Sergeant Major" (TF equivalent of a regular battalions warrant officer - sergeant major - today's RSM).

Thank you.

My records show the Sergeant Major in 1914 was J. Buchanan 10039, formerly 1st Cameron Highlanders, commissioned March 1915, later MBE. Here as Colour Sgt 1909:

9-RS3

Anyone want to place odds on it being the same man?

 

8 hours ago, Ron Abbott said:

Does anyone know the full name, number or even the first initial for Pipe-Major Porteous?

Pipe-Major Thomas Porteous

https://neillgilhooley.com/9th-royal-scots/index/

 

As for the group photograph, is it likely the SM is in the centre, with QMS to the left as we look at it?

Edited by Neill Gilhooley
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Ahh, better picture:

9RSzx

 

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3 hours ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

Thank you.

My records show the Sergeant Major in 1914 was J. Buchanan 10039, formerly 1st Cameron Highlanders, commissioned March 1915, later MBE. Here as Colour Sgt 1909:

9-RS3

Anyone want to place odds on it being the same man?

 

Pipe-Major Thomas Porteous

https://neillgilhooley.com/9th-royal-scots/index/

 

As for the group photograph, is it likely the SM is in the centre, with QMS to the left as we look at it?

 

 

Thanks Neill,

 

Much appreciated.  

 

But is he the same Pipe-Major Thomas Porteous who appears to have been (based on newspaper archives) Pipe-Major of the (civilian) Inverkeithing Pipe Band in 1915 (?)

 

Or perhaps, the Pipe-Major Thomas Porteous who was Pipe-Major of the 5th Scottish Provisional Battalion during WW1 (?)

 

And/or Pipe-Major Thomas Porteous who was Pipe-Major of the 11th Bn. Royal Scots Fusiliers in WW1 (?)

(note: Pipes Of War records his number incorrectly as  26522.  It should be 265222).

 

I notice that the latter was not a recipient of the 1914 1915 star, so a possible.

 

Or are they all one and the same man?

 

Neill.....one last request.  From your pdf. file, is there any chance you can separate the photo of P/M Porteous (as presented in the Royal Scots Club) and put a copy on here to allow us to get a better view of his uniform and accoutrements?

  

Many thanks/Ron

 

 

 

 

 

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I would say it was highly likely he was 5th Prov Bn as that is where the Home Service men went...

58ef6cf1879b6_Edinburgh100.jpg.91d446c8195f7a6a6993f6a353d1baa5.jpg

I would be very interested if you succeed in tracking him down!

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4 hours ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

Ahh, better picture:

9RSzx

 

 

He was a Colour Sergeant Instructor (of Musketry) shown by the "instr" annotated on your other photo, thus marking his status as 'regular' (army) permanent staff.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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20 hours ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

I would say it was highly likely he was 5th Prov Bn as that is where the Home Service men went...

58ef6cf1879b6_Edinburgh100.jpg.91d446c8195f7a6a6993f6a353d1baa5.jpg

I would be very interested if you succeed in tracking him down!

 

 

Thanks very much for that Neill.  Indeed, the uniform of a Pipe-Major/Serjeant Piper of the Dandy Ninth.

 

There is only one man called T Porteous in the medal rolls that I can find and which might be a possible.  Serjeant 1493 T Porteous of the Royal Scots.  However I can't find him via Ancestry only via FMP.

 

Here is a link to the National Archives record : -

 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6383871

 

Why am I not surfacing this man elsewhere?  Moved on to another regiment/unit?  Or because, he was not in a theatre of war.  The 2/9th only served in Scotland, England and Ireland did it not?

 

Would that regimental number (1493) be compatible with the 2/9th?

 

I did however find 'our' Pipe-Major T Porteous in the newspaper archives :

 

The Dundee Courier of 3rd June 1915 contains an article mentioning a performance by the band and pipes and drums of the 9th Royal Scots at Dudhope Castle,  Bandmaster H I Laubach and Pipe-Major C Porteous are mentioned (presumably the C is an error).

 

Then the Dundee Courier of 17th September 1915 mentions Bandmaster H I Laubach and Pipe-Major T Porteous of the 5th Scottish Provisional Battalion leading the band and pipes and drums on a parade at Dudhope Castle, Dundee.  

 

The 17th September 1915 edition of the Dundee Evening Telegraph also mentions the same performance, and records Laubach and Pipe-Major T Porteous as 5th Scottish Provisional Battalion.

 

The 28th August 1915 edition of the Dundee People's Journal records the pair in the same manner.

 

As such Neill, it looks like you're right........Pipe-Major Thomas Porteous was Pipe-Major of the 2/9th Royal Scots and then the 5th Scottish Provisional Battalion.

 

There was also apparently a Pipe-Major Thomas Porteous of the (civilian) Inverkeithing Pipe Band 'post WW1' and of course, Pipe-Major Thomas Porteous of the 11th Bn. RSF.  I wonder whether that is also him? 

 

P/M Thomas Porteous 265222 of the 11th Bn. Royal Scots Fusiliers, was not a recipient of the 1914/1915 star.....which makes me think it might be.  

 

Can anyone advise when that number (265222) was likely issued?  

After September 1915 (as that is the last newspaper article I surfaced mentioning P/M T Porteous of the 5th Scottish Provisional Battalion)?  

 

The Long Long Trail records that the 11th RSF was not formed until January 1917 and was made up of men who were 'home service', largely from the 11th Provisional Battalion.  

 

The aforementioned Bandmaster 'HI Laubach' was Serjeant 491 Herbert Ivo Laubach.  

 

His pension records are accessible via Ancestry....and they have him recorded initially (from 1914) as 9th Bn. Royal Scots.    

 

They then record him transferring to the 5th Provisional Battalion (20th May 1915) and then to the 11th Provisional Battalion (29th March 1916), so if Pipe-Major Porteous followed the same route, then he presumably also went from the 2/9th Royal Scots to the 5th Provisional, 11th Provisional and then on to the 11th Bn. Royal Scots Fusiliers.

 

Sorry, that's long winded but I've been at it bit by bit whenever I've had a break during the day!  So if you want to find more about Pipe-Major Thomas Porteous, you might want to focus in on the man who was Pipe-Major of the 11th RSF......as I think it is almost certainly the same man.  Maybe 'not beyond all reasonable doubt' but I reckon it would fulfill, 'on the balance of probabilities'. 


(p.s. I've tried to find a marriage record for a John Anderson (whom the photo purports is the son-in-law of P/M Thomas Porteous) to a woman surnamed Porteous in Scotland's People and the free England BMD website.  There are two candidates but the date for one is far too early and for the other, the woman's father was not called Thomas Porteous but Alexander, so that unfortunately rules that one out as well!  Maybe married in the USA or elsewhere. A pity that John Anderson didn't mention his wife's name, as we could probably have worked out Thomas Porteous' birth/marriage/death details working backwards).

Edited by Ron Abbott
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It seems as if quite a number of these key musicians were moved from battalion to battalion as each was being raised (the term 'provisional' was used in that way by the army for centuries) probably as an aid to recruiting and martial morale, providing a stirring sight and sound at various public appearances. It would be a typical role for older men not really fit enough for front line service.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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On 13/04/2017 at 16:58, FROGSMILE said:

He was a Colour Sergeant Instructor (of Musketry) shown by the "instr" annotated on your other photo, thus marking his status as 'regular' (army) permanent staff.

My thanks again.

On 14/04/2017 at 02:14, Ron Abbott said:

 Indeed, the uniform of a Pipe-Major/Serjeant Piper of the Dandy Ninth.

Ron, Good research.

 

I don’t have a 1493, were this 9RS he would have joined April-May 1913 (and had he been renumbered to six-digit would have been of the order of 350180)

Nor can I find the MIC of 1493 on Ancestry, I’m sure these are the same you found:

Thomas Porteous Sjt RSF 265222

Thomas Porteous Pte RS 3501

Thomas Porteous Pte RS 250396

 

However you are correct that 2/9th remained on Home service. 2/9th had to find another band when the existing band went with the Home Service men to 5th Sco Prov Bn in May 1915. LLT tells us 5th merged with 7th Scottish Provisional Bn in 1916.

 

Thank you very much for quoting your newspaper sources, I will add to my Index. Dudhope Castle fits perfectly as that was HQ for 5th Scottish Provisional Battalion

I have information on Laubach in my Index but had “11th [?]” for his transfer, thanks for the RSF answer, I’ll take another look.

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25 minutes ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

My thanks again.

Ron, Good research.

 

I don’t have a 1493, were this 9RS he would have joined April-May 1913 (and had he been renumbered to six-digit would have been of the order of 350180)

Nor can I find the MIC of 1493 on Ancestry, I’m sure these are the same you found:

Thomas Porteous Sjt RSF 265222

Thomas Porteous Pte RS 3501

Thomas Porteous Pte RS 250396

 

However you are correct that 2/9th remained on Home service. 2/9th had to find another band when the existing band went with the Home Service men to 5th Sco Prov Bn in May 1915. LLT tells us 5th merged with 7th Scottish Provisional Bn in 1916.

 

Thank you very much for quoting your newspaper sources, I will add to my Index. Dudhope Castle fits perfectly as that was HQ for 5th Scottish Provisional Battalion

I have information on Laubach in my Index but had “11th [?]” for his transfer, thanks for the RSF answer, I’ll take another look.

 

 

Hi Neill,

 

Laubach's records can be viewed via Ancestry.  Apparently served in the Edinburgh City Royal Garrison Artillery, but is recorded as 9th Royal Scots w.e.f. 1908.

 

Looks like his father/grandfather had also been Bandmaster of the ECRGA as well : -

 

http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_g_e/0_groups_and_outings_edinburgh_city_royal_garrison_artillery_band.htm

 

However not to go too far off tangent........according to his records accessible via Ancestry he was 2/9th Royal Scots until 20th May 1915 then 5th (Scottish) Provisional Battalion and then 11th (Scottish) Provisional Battalion with effect from 29th March 1916.  Discharged from the army in July 1916.

 

His discharge date is too early for him then to have subsequently been in 11th Bn. RSF (if it only came into existence on 1st Jan 1917), however as the 5th Provisional merged into the 11th Provisional which then partially morphed in the 11th Bn. RSF, and we know from newspaper articles that Porteous was 5th Provisional after 2/9th Royal Scots, it stands to reason in my mind that he most likely went on to become 11th Provisional and subsequently Pipe-Major of the 11th Bn. RSF.

 

From the medal rolls and from 'The Pipes of War' (Seton & Grant) we know that the Pipe-Major of the 11th Bn. RSF was a man called Thomas Porteous, so it would be some coincidence if it wasn't him, given how the various aforementioned battalions changed throughout the war.

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