9th Royal Scots

[alistair_m]

Hello,

Ive undertaken task of colourising a photograph of my Great Uncle Arthur Lawson, Reg No 1954.

 

Arthur was attested into the 9th Royal Scots on 7th August 1914, but was later commissioned in the Gordon Highlanders.  During 1916 he was attached to 11th Cameronians and was killed in Salonika later that year.

 

The colourising is proving quite a task, although Im thoroughly enjoying it.  I do, however, need some assistance from anyone experienced in WW1 uniforms - particularly the Tartans of the Royal Scots.  In fact, any guidance on colours would be gratefully accepted. (Ignore the current colour of the kilt -  I was messing about trying to find something that looked like the background colour).  I would also be quite interested in trying to identify the location of the photograph )not much to go on, but this forum always seem to resolve the impossible!)

 

Thanking you in advance

 

Alistair

[mancpal]

Alistair,

 

I'm sorry that I can't help with your question but thought I'd point out what a good job of the colourisation you've made.

 

Simon

 

[gordon92]

The 9th Batt Royal Scots wore Hunting Stewart tartan kilts.  See images below.  This tartan consisted of yellow and red overstripes on the Government tartan.

 

Hope this is of assistance.

 

 

[Ron Abbott]

Another photo of a Captain.......with the RQMS (?) of the Dandy Ninth taken at exactly the same location : -

 

http://media.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/data/images/SoldiersWills_Images/Regimental/9th-Royal-Scots-WW1.jpg

 

Presumably taken early on (1914 or early 1915) given the wearing of spats.

 

Not sure about the Captain.  He's wearing a plain coloured glengarry, not diced; and the 9th were proud of their kilts. 

 

The 1/9th were at East Claremount Street in Edinburgh until early 1915, but that's not the TA Depot in East Claremount Street. 

 

Maybe Cassel in France where the 1/9th spent a short time in early 1915?

If 2/9th or 3/9th, then you might be looking for a location closer to home in Peebles, Selkirk, Kilmarnock or Leith!

 

Is there no photographers name on the front or rear of your photo?

 

 

Edited 22 August , 2016 by Ron Abbott

[alistair_m]

Many thanks for your help and comments folks!

 

Attached is a low res version of the finished item. I'm hoping that the colours and layout of the tartan are somewhere close.

 

In terms of location, I have seen some of the other pictures on the internet, taking at the identical location.  I did assume that they were taken before leaving the UK - judging by the enthusiastic and youthful look on Arthur's face - although its difficult to appreciate he was only 19 at the time.  I did wonder about East Claremont Street and having had a quick look at the building there now, would tend to agree that its probably not that location.

 

Regards

 

Alistair

[Neill Gilhooley]

Really good work Alistair.

John Duncan’s collection of photographs contains a few examples of the famous steps, reproduced in the Edinburgh Evening Dispatch when they were wounded or killed. This one is entitled: ‘Pte Robert Douglas Burr. After his enlistment in 1914 Courtesy of Tony Black, Robert’s Grandson.’

http://www.newbattleatwar.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=120626369

 

Candidate locations include Bruntsfield School (this I think is the most likely, there are steps either side of the main building) and Warrender Park School (corner Marchmont Rd and Cres), Edinburgh. Both were billets for 1/9^th RS from October 1914 until deployment in February 1915. If you knew his Coy we might be more certain.

 

Ron, do you think the Captain was probably the adjutant? Likely then to be R.M. Dudgeon (Cameron Highlanders), though I am not good at spotting likenesses…

[Ron Abbott]

13 minutes ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

Really good work Alistair.

John Duncan’s collection of photographs contains a few examples of the famous steps, reproduced in the Edinburgh Evening Dispatch when they were wounded or killed. This one is entitled: ‘Pte Robert Douglas Burr. After his enlistment in 1914 Courtesy of Tony Black, Robert’s Grandson.’

http://www.newbattleatwar.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=120626369

 

Candidate locations include Bruntsfield School (this I think is the most likely, there are steps either side of the main building) and Warrender Park School (corner Marchmont Rd and Cres), Edinburgh. Both were billets for 1/9^th RS from October 1914 until deployment in February 1915. If you knew his Coy we might be more certain.

 

Ron, do you think the Captain was probably the adjutant? Likely then to be R.M. Dudgeon (Cameron Highlanders), though I am not good at spotting likenesses…

 

Neill,

 

Could well be Dudgeon.  A Cameron Highlanders plain glengarry would certainly clear things up with regard to the Captain in the photo. 

 

Ron

 

 

  

[alistair_m]

1 hour ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

Really good work Alistair.

John Duncan’s collection of photographs contains a few examples of the famous steps, reproduced in the Edinburgh Evening Dispatch when they were wounded or killed. This one is entitled: ‘Pte Robert Douglas Burr. After his enlistment in 1914 Courtesy of Tony Black, Robert’s Grandson.’

http://www.newbattleatwar.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=120626369

 

Candidate locations include Bruntsfield School (this I think is the most likely, there are steps either side of the main building) and Warrender Park School (corner Marchmont Rd and Cres), Edinburgh. Both were billets for 1/9^th RS from October 1914 until deployment in February 1915. If you knew his Coy we might be more certain.

 

Ron, do you think the Captain was probably the adjutant? Likely then to be R.M. Dudgeon (Cameron Highlanders), though I am not good at spotting likenesses…

Thanks for this Neil.

 

Im based in Edinburgh, So Ill be off looking this evening to see if there is any resemblance to the buildings you mentioned.  At the moment, I'm unsure of which Company ACL was in - not even too sure how to find that out.  But as I have his service records (or what remains of them), I'll have a gander through there and see what that returns.

 

Whilst Googling the 9th, I came across a reference to some work that you've put together... "Index 9th Royal Scots".  What a job you have there!  And what an excellent source of reference.  If you would like more info on Arthur Lawson (pg 466 of your piece), let me know and I can fire it across.

 

A

 

[Neill Gilhooley]

Thanks Alistair, I was just getting around to sending you a message...

[Ron Abbott]

I take it that Warrander Park School at the junction of Marchmont Road/Crescent is the building that was the location of James Gillespies School as I remember it in the 1970s?

 

And the Brunstfield School you refer to.......is the the building at Gillespie Crescent, which was occupied by James Gillespies School prior to WW1?  That was certainly taken over by the military in WW1.  

 

Or the Bruntsfield Primary School at Montpelier?

 

And now I'm confusing myself, so heaven knows how much I;m confusing you, so I'd better sign off....... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alistair_m]

I think Neil, you have solved it.....!

 

Wont know for sure until this evening, but this is the side of Brunstfield.  What do you think?

 

A

[Neill Gilhooley]

Yes, I think Warrender Park became James Gillespie's Junior School; and the Bruntsfield School I mean is on Montpelier. I can't find Montpelier Crescent, beyond my local history knowledge!

Let us know how you get on Alistair.

[alistair_m]

Neil,

 

You sir, are an absolute genius!!!!  I do not understand how this forum and its members can continually keep producing "rabbits out of hats".  I gave you hardly any clues, and you've identified the exact position of this photograph!  It is indeed Bruntsfield Primary School.

 

Many, many thanks!!

 

Alistair

[gordon92]

15 hours ago, Ron Abbott said:

Another photo of a Captain.......with the RQMS (?) of the Dandy Ninth taken at exactly the same location : -

 

http://media.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/data/images/SoldiersWills_Images/Regimental/9th-Royal-Scots-WW1.jpg

 

Presumably taken early on (1914 or early 1915) given the wearing of spats.

 

Not sure about the Captain.  He's wearing a plain coloured glengarry, not diced; and the 9th were proud of their kilts. 

 

The 1/9th were at East Claremount Street in Edinburgh until early 1915, but that's not the TA Depot in East Claremount Street. 

 

Maybe Cassel in France where the 1/9th spent a short time in early 1915?

If 2/9th or 3/9th, then you might be looking for a location closer to home in Peebles, Selkirk, Kilmarnock or Leith!

 

Is there no photographers name on the front or rear of your photo?

 

 

Ron......I would be very surprised if the Captain in your linked linked photo is from 9th RS.  As you pointed out, there are issues with the glengarry and breeches.  See photo below dated 1909 showing 9th RS officers wearing diced glengarries.  I think it more likely that the Captain is from either the 4th or 5th Batt (Queen's Edinburgh Rifles) Royal Scots.  In both those battalions all ranks wore a solid glengarry.

 

Mike

 

Edited 22 August , 2016 by gordon92

[Ron Abbott]

3 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Ron......I would be very surprised if the Captain in your linked linked photo is from 9th RS.  As you pointed out, there are issues with the glengarry and breeches.  See photo below dated 1909 showing 9th RS officers wearing diced glengarries.  I think it more likely that the Captain is from either the 4th or 5th Batt (Queen's Edinburgh Rifles) Royal Scots.  In both those battalions all ranks wore a solid glengarry.

 

Mike

 

 

Could well be Mike.  Thanks.

 

However in a post above, Neill also has a highly plausible suggestion re. the plain glengarry......that it's Capt. R M Dudgeon of the Camerons who was the adjutant of the Dandy Ninth.

 

Does anyone have a decent photo of R M Dudgeon from around 1914/1915?

 

Unfortunately the tartan isn't clear nor is the cap badge.

 

   

[Neill Gilhooley]

Well done Alistair! Did you just stroll in there and take pictures!

 

There are a couple of thumbnails of Dudgeon in my Index, hard to see him clearly though https://neillgilhooley.com/9th-royal-scots/index/

The are taken from group photos, the one from Ewings regimental history is here (1914):

I know from experience that Gordon92 is rarely wrong, so I look forward to your opinion Mike. That photo of 1909 is new to me - do you know where it came from?

[gordon92]

Neill and Ron,

 

I missed the Dudgeon angle.  My mistake. 

 

I am looking at Ron's photo again and focusing on the cap badge that is at a bad angle to the camera. What I see is the badge backing that seems to widen to cover the entire height of the glengarry from top edge to the bottom of the silk edging.  With a high degree of confidence I believe this is the type of rosette that is used as a badge backing only by the Cameron Highlanders on their glengarries.  So yes, I think the Captain is a Cameron.

 

Whether the Cameron captain in Ron's photo is Dudgeon or not is much more tenuous.  There appears to be some facial resemblance.  However the face in Ron's photo seems to be somewhat wider than the person in Neill's photo in post #16 and in the thumbnails.  So, I am skeptical that the Captain with the QMS is Dudgeon...just my opinion.  That is a very impressive personnel list you have put together, Neill.

 

Regarding the 1909 photo, Neill, I am afraid do not remember the source. The caption read July 1909 Aberdour Camp if that helps.

 

Mike

Edited 23 August , 2016 by gordon92

[Neill Gilhooley]

Thanks Mike, I knew we could rely on your good judgement.

[Neill Gilhooley]

Does anyone know someone at Bruntsfield School? I wrote to them by e-mail and post last year, I think, to see if they still had the photographs that evidently used to reside here:

http://www.take2theweb.com/pub/edinburgh/bruntsfield/gb.html

From David Stewart in Sydney, Australia.

[alistair_m]

Neill,

 

As you know, I live close by, so can arrange to call in at some point. Hopefully next week

 

Alistair

[gordon92]

9 hours ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

Thanks Mike, I knew we could rely on your good judgement.

Glad I could help.

[Neill Gilhooley]

Thanks Alistair - though I really don't want to put you out, it is only a couple of pictures.

Just to add a bit to the Bruntsfield School picture...

Alexander Cameron Lindsay attended the school and then joined 9RS on the outbreak of war so was probably billeted in his old school. He was killed 23rd April 1915 (Second Ypres) aged 19.

The Index also has plenty of hits for Montpelier.

This poem was in the Edinburgh Evening Despatch (though it was not all readable - "anxious" is guesswork so you might do better!)

Dear “Dandy Ninth” we’ll miss you when from Bruntsfield you depart,

And you will leave behind you full many an anxious heart.

We’ve watched you doing sentry, and seen you on the march.

Egad! But there’s a difference since the days when you wore starch.

The days when you wore starch, my boys,

And socks of varied hue,

Soft Homburg hats and yellow spats,

And fancy waistcoats, too.

But with it all there’s been brave hearts beneath each fancy vest;

With bayonets fixed, you’re ready now to exterminate “a pest!”

Here’s luck to every gallant lad who leaves this shore, for why, sir?

He wants to have a little sport in cornering the Kaiser!

In cornering the Kaiser, boys,

And won’t he quake with fear

When he sees the boys of the “Dandy Ninth”

From Scotland drawing near.

Edited 25 August , 2016 by Neill Gilhooley

[Neill Gilhooley]

This was on ebay a while back (hence watermark):

Photographic postcard of the Sergeants Mess [includes the RQMS & CQMS] serving with the 9th Battalion Royal Scots [Dandy Ninth]. Message on reverse from George Lyle to his sister Miss Meg Lyle of 1 Tannock Street, Kilmarnock. States on reverse "Bruntsfield School 27.2.1915". Posted from Edinburgh MAR 1 15

-

This date makes this the 2/9th RS who took over the 1/9ths duties when they departed for France.

 

Edited 25 August , 2016 by Neill Gilhooley

[PPCLI]

Hi Neill,

 

I am fairly confident that the photo is indeed Captain Dudgeon. I have set it against a named photo of him taken from a local newspaper (see below). It looks like this was taken at the same location.

 

Best wishes,

 

Stuart

 

Edited 28 August , 2016 by PPCLI

[gordon92]

21 hours ago, PPCLI said:

Hi Neill,

 

I am fairly confident that the photo is indeed Captain Dudgeon. I have set it against a named photo of him taken from a local newspaper (see below). It looks like this was taken at the same location.

 

Best wishes,

 

Stuart

 

In the second photo, the cap badge is more clearly visible.  It is definitely a Cameron Highlanders badge.