Numbers of British P.1907 bayonets surviving

[JMB1943]

6 hours ago, Phil B said:

How many have you found to date?

Hello Phil,

 

The total list of serials is currently at 56, but obviously there are many more out there (like those mentioned in the last couple of posts) that are floating around. The fact that there are relatively so many in Australia makes me wonder if they were originally sold off to an arms dealer in Oz, and from there found their way to the UK & US.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

[Phil B]

I did read on a forum there were releases done Aus USA and EU in the 50s and 60s but haven’t as yet found out by whom 

[MDavo]

G'day from Victoria Australia. I have recently come across a Siam P1907 after a friend of the family was metal detecting on the family farm. He found it buried in fine mud in an old barge hole dam. No one we know of could guess why it was there or how long it had been there for. I have attached a couple of photos and was hoping for some advice on how best to tidy it up and ultimately look after it. All I have done so far is gently wash the mud from it in water. There appears to be deposits of solidified mud or perhaps calcification of some sort on it in several places.

From what I can make of it, the serial number is 1367. The scabbard is an original brazed steel one, though it has been rusted through in several places with a crack across the width of it. I'm curious that the timber handles aren't original (whats your thoughts?). The blade seems to be in rather good condition considering where it was found, though there is some rusting which will likely have caused pitting in the best case scenario. 

 

Cheers,

Matt

[Phil B]

Mate you saved it just in time. The wood is original so just give it a good drink of “Boiled “ linseed oil don’t try undoing the screws . Post you pictures on bayonet collectors Facebook page and you will get plenty of quality advice from the die hard members. They aren’t worth a lot in cash here in OZ but very collectable . Thanks for sharing your fantastic find

[JMB1943]

Matt,

 

Welcome to the forum.

That is a fantastic find, and could/should be brought back to presentable condition.

1. Yes, the serial number is 1367.

2. As Phil says, don’t even think about removing the grips; they certainly look original

3. Before you do anything other than your water wash, could you get an accurate weight on the scabbard & bayonet, separately?

I would like to compare those weights to mine.

4. You should use either bronze wool (softer than steel) and light oil on the rust.

If bronze wool unavailable, use fine steel wool (#0000)/ oil.

5. As Phil says, linseed oil (no shellac or varnish, they were not original) only on the grips.

6. Any markings on side opposite the Smiling Tiger?

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

 

[MDavo]

G'day JMB,

 

Thank you for your intertest and time. The best I could manage at this stage for individual weight is kitchen scales. The bayonet weighted practically spot on 500g, tending to be slightly higher, occasionally reading 501-2g depending on how I held my tongue. The scabbard, in as pictured condition weighted 199-200g. Again there was slight fluctuation on the scale between readings.

Thank you for the advice towards clean up. I'm looking forward to starting the process.

The picture is not particularly clear, so I do appologise. There are a pair of fairly shallow punch marks (there appears to be two), in the shape of "^". There are no other discernible markings.

 

Cheers, and thank you to Phil B and yourself for your assitance! 

[JMB1943]

Matt,

 

Thanks for the weight data.

I know what you mean about the weights drifting—have to set mine up in the kitchen when the AC is not blowing and weigh at least 3 times.

From that weight, I would say that you very likely have one of the Pattern 1907’s that was made by Wilkinson.

So as not to scratch, I would use wooden toothpick to remove the gunk initially.

Let oil soak into rust for some while to soften it before trying to remove it.

By the by, the sheet steel scabbard is the replacement made by the Siamese after the original British leather one had rotted away.

I would guess that the marking on the reverse ricasso is probably the ‘X’ bend test marking applied to all Patt. 07’s at that time.

You are clearly interested in these Bayonets, so we are expecting great things from you!!

Please update us with your conservation progress, and don’t forget the photos.

 

Regards,

JMB

[JMB1943]

Matt,

 

This will enlighten you as to why I am interested in the weight of a (near-relic) Smiling Tiger Bayonet.

 

http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SJr9YCzA8jJrTDdmFPsW/full

 

Regards,

JMB

[MDavo]

G'day all,

 

Several hours of elbow grease, sewing machine oil and "0000" steel wool have made a huge difference. Pictures don't really do it justice. Its not perfect by any stretch, with rust going a bit deeper in some spots, further than I had hoped. Though it's current state has exceeded what I had expected to achieve so I am definitely happy. Quite amazing considering where it was found. 

I might be able to improve it a little more, but I doubt it would show on photos.

 

Thank you for your advice, I'm glad to have been able to save a "Tiger". 

 

Cheers,

Matt

[Phil B]

Great job, now about the ones I have at home ,,, lol

[JMB1943]

Matt,

 

Thanks for posting the “after” photos.

It really looks much better now, and more importantly, you have killed the active rust.

Keep on with the Tiger rescues!

 

Regards,

JMB

[4thVBGH]

And another for the project.

 

Discussing bayonets with a colleague and he asked me if I was interested in this.

 

Robert

[JMB1943]

Robert,

 

Thanks for showing 7094.

Looks like a metal scabbard, with both in average condition.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

 

[Phil B]

A bloke in a Enfield group posted this. Hope it’s a new one for your list

 

[JMB1943]

Hello Phil,

 

Thanks for that, it is a new one; I read it as 2715.

This puts the list at 63.

 

Regards,

JMB

Edited 18 April , 2021 by JMB1943
typo

[Phil B]

This one just turned up on Australian eBay . Obviously refurbished but a little suspicious of the stamp , your thoughts would be appreciated. 

 

[JMB1943]

Thanks for posting!

Is it the unusual spacing between the first/second digits that looks odd.

That aside, I see nothing unusual, so I would be happy to buy it.

Do you read it as 3070?

 

Regards,

JMB

Edited 23 April , 2021 by JMB1943
Add info.

[Phil B]

Agreed 3070,I have noticed that the fullers are different ends on some units , maybe a reference to the manufacture origin ? . Out of interest do you have any information on the rifles or who distributed them in the 1960s ? 

[JMB1943]

Yes, different manufacturers did tend to have slight differences in the fullers.

Since the SMLE No. 1 Mk III rifle could only mount the Pattern 1907 bayonet, and the Patt. 07 bayonet could only be affixed to the SMLE No. 1  Mk III, the bayonet & rifle was a weapons  system that would, I assume, have been sold-off together.

 

Regards,

JMB

[4thGordons]

1 hour ago, JMB1943 said:

Since the SMLE No. 1 Mk III rifle could only mount the Pattern 1907 bayonet, and the Patt. 07 bayonet could only be affixed to the SMLE No. 1  Mk III,

 

 

I don't believe either of these statements are actually correct although it does not change the main point (no pun intended) that rifles and bayonets would usually be supplied together

The P1903 bayonet also fits the ShtLE

and  the P1907 also fits the Lanchester SMG

 

[JMB1943]

Chris,

 

Yes, but the Patt. 1903 bayonet went out of production in 190x, and the Lanchester SMG was only produced 1941-5.

So, unless the Wild Tiger Corps (if still in existence) bought surplus Lanchesters, then my statement in the context is correct.

 

Regards,

JMB

[4thGordons]

34 minutes ago, JMB1943 said:

Chris,

 

Yes, but the Patt. 1903 bayonet went out of production in 190x, and the Lanchester SMG was only produced 1941-5.

So, unless the Wild Tiger Corps (if still in existence) bought surplus Lanchesters, then my statement in the context is correct.

 

Regards,

JMB

Apologies, I didn't realize the comment was limited to just the Wild Tiger Corps, I wasn't certain to whom the comment was addressed.

 

The 1920 BSA Siam Contract  was indeed for rifles, bayonets and slings to the tune of 76,625 pounds.

 

Chris

[Phil B]

Yesterday I received a reply from a renowned person of great knowledge on the subject whom gave me a possible lead to the distribution of the bayonets and rifles. As both our research runs parallel I thought I should share it. 
the name “International Firearms “ in the U.S..

ive written to every company with that name I could find and will share any useful response I receive. As I trust you guys will . Cheers Phil 

[4thGordons]

I just went and looked at my two Siamese rifles looking for clues. Neither appears to have any import stamping on them which would suggest they were imported into the US prior to 1968.

I did also notice something which I had forgotten - in addition to the Siamese number, on the opposite side of the receiver both have added an added 3 digit number (possibly used as the serial number by the importer/distributor in the US). The higher of the two is 926.

One of the rifles has an aluminium inventory tag on the trigger guard (which was there when I bought it about 20 years ago) it reads PARAGON S & S and a multi-digit inventory number.

Chris

Edited 24 April , 2021 by 4thGordons

[Phil B]

Mate you are a legend!!!, can I have that number please? You gave me a direction  cheers Phil