Sinking of S P 17 26 2 1918. What sort of vessel?

[Hywyn]

Whilst researching Royal Welsh Fusiliers men I came across the records of  James Evans RWF 23085 who had transferred to RE I W D 449157 in Sept 1917.

 

His records shows

'..missing believed drowned ex S P 17 between Malta and Port Said on or since 26 2 1918..'

 

FindMy Past also has  for him on one of those single sheet lists. This particular list is part of a RE I W T (Glasgow) Daily Orders dated 12 1 1918 and says

 

" The undermentioned  NCO's and men, the crew of the S.P. 17 left Fowey for the East (Mesopotamia) on 10 1 1918"

 

It lists 21 men including James Evans 449157

 

James Evans is on Basra Memorial for 26 2 1918 but under his RE number WR/350334. There are 32 RE men on Basra Memorial for this date (3 Officers & 28 men) and of that list of 21 I can see 19. Althoughthey are on CWGC with the 'new' WR/35xxxx numbers many of the surnames are rather unique so I'm reasonably happy of the 19.

 

So, to my query. What was the S.P. 17 and did it sink. Was it a barge/river boat etc sent to Mespot under it's own steam or maybe, given the wording of the Daily Order,  it was loaded onto to a larger vessel (with its crew) and that larger vessel was sunk that day.

 

My intention is along the lines of listing the names/numbers  in case they/the info will be of use.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 19 August , 2016 by Hywyn

[Hywyn]

 

 

 

CWGC list of RE men on Basra memorial 26 2 1918. Last three are Officers.

 

Note:  I haven't fully confirmed the WR/ numbers match the other numbers on the MIC's but you can see that surnames/initials are spot on. The two on the Daily Order list that are not on the below CWGC are 345164 Wilson and 287136 Barrow (I'll have a look at them now)

 

edit:

Henry Barrow, as WR 354935 has a SWB issued 1919 so he survived this sinking.

George Buchanan Wilson WR/355358 has papers. They show similar to James Evans, missing believed drowned26 2 1918. 

I haven't yet checked those names below which are not on the Daily Order list

 

ALLDAY	ERNEST HENRY	'WR/355324'
ALLEN	HENRY	'WR/355225'
BERNDSSON	BERNARD MAURITZ	'WR/355349'
BROWNE	BERTIE EDWARD	'WR/355352'
BURGON	JAMES	'WR/355322'
CATO	JOHN	'WR/355340'
COLVIN	JAMES	'WR/355336'
CURRIE	BERNARD	'WR/355337'
DAVIES	JOHN	'WR/350199'	Brother of Henry Davies, of 92, Gaerwen St., Kensington, Liverpool.
DUNCAN	DANIEL	'WR/355344'
EVANS	JAMES	'WR/350334'
FRY	ARTHUR J.	'WR/350361'
HELSBY	FRANCIS JAMES	'WR/307006'	Son of the late James and Mary Helsby.
HILL	FRANK	'317934'	Husband of Nellie Hill, of "South View", Queen's Promenadel Douglas, Isle of Man.
HOLDEN	THOMAS WATSON	'WR/355355'
JOYCE	PATRICK	'WR/350134'	Husband of Mrs. Wava Miller (formerly Joyce), of Hannibal, New York, U.S.A.
LAING	EDWARD OASTLER	'320510'	Son of the late James and Emilie Laing.
MANN	WILLIAM ERNEST	'WR/355338'	Son of Mr. and Mrs. Mann, of 33, Pembroke St., Bedford.
METCALF	GEORGE	'WR/355332'
MORAN	FRANK	'WR/355335'	Son of Michael and Mary Moran.
PALMER	DAVID
PARKINSON	GEORGE	'WR/355339'
ROGERS	JAMES ARCHIBALD
SCOTT	JAMES
SLATER	HARRY	'SR/355320'
SMITH	ARTHUR	'WR/350359'
SMITH	ROBERT	'WR/355334'	Son of John and Flora Smith; husband of Cissy Smith (nee Daly).
WALKLETT	WILLIAM	'WR/355351'
WATKINS	WILLIAM ARTHUR	'WR/355356'
WEAVER	GEORGE ARTHUR	'WR/355346'
YUILLE	CHARLES FREDERICK	'WR/355357'	Son of the late Andrew Yuille.

 

 

Edited 19 August , 2016 by Hywyn

[Kath]

http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/17idx.htm

 

Kath.

[Hywyn]

Thanks for the link Kath. I see those SP vessels are US Navy though. 

[little bob]

Hywyn

 

On 18th February 2007 Northern Soul posted

"Does anyone know the circumstances of the loss of the Royal Engineers I W T  Hospital Paddler-HP17 (aka SP17) on 26th February 1918 supposedly in the Mediterranean?"

There were no replies to the post.

 

Bob

[Hywyn]

Brilliant Bob. Many thanks.

 

That opens it up and leads to this

 

http://www.clydeserver.com/shipping/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=16596

 

which explains her demise

 

cut & paste from above site

 

" HP 17
Launched by William Simons & Co Renfrew, Yard No 604 on 13/12/1917 for service in Mesopotamia with the War Office. 26/2/1918 foundered in the Mediterranean
552grt
220.4ft x 30.1ft x 4ft
Paddle, steam C2cy diagonal, 214nhp, 1050ihp giving 11.5knots

She was one of the 8-17 class that were to be added to the Tigris Hospital Fleet in 1918. The class embodied all the improvements which experience of the earlier vessels sent out from England, the H.M. (Hospital motor-ships) and the earlier H.P. Classes had shown to be necessary. They were fitted with alternating paddles and engines, giving over 1000 horse-power, and with tanks full, it had a maximum draught of 4 feet. The ward space and accommodation for medical personnel and crew were ample, and the storage accommodation was adequate for all purposes. A gallery was provided round the side of the ship on the main deck, obviating the necessity for the crew to pass through the lower wards when working the ship.

On completion she left under her own steam for Mesopotamia
26/2/1918 she foundered in bad weather while passing through the Mediterranean "

[Hywyn]

Two of the 21 men on the crew list in post 2 are not on the CWGC list.

 

287136 Henry Barrow has papers and they show he went to hospital at Gib during the voyage. He survived the war.

 

As previously said George Buchanan Wilson has papers which shows he was missing presumed lost on that date. I can't readily spot him on CWGC (unless I've overlooked something simple) He is in the Overseas Index but not on SDGW/SER. I have opened contact with Terry Denham regarding this non comm angle.

[Hywyn]

An update re George Buchanan Wilson.

 

Terry Denham reports on below thread that Wilson has been accepted as a Non Comm

 

 

Edited 26 January , 2017 by Hywyn

[Terry_Reeves]

Hywyn

 

 The UK Mesopotamia Depot was at the Yorkhill Riding School, Glasgow and men departed from there overseas. It was not at all unusual for them to crew vessels to Mesopotamia from the UK, coast-hopping their way to Egypt.  Having reached Egypt, the vessels were often dismantled and the sent overland to Basra where they were reassembled.

 

Below are the officers who lost their lives. The details are contained in the treasury document as noted.

 

TNA  T1/12302  Folio 13459

 

 

Lt  James Archibald Rogers

 

Lt Commander RNR and Lt Special List IWT

Drowned at sea 26.2.1918

Widow 81 Abingdon Villa, Kensington, London

 

Lt David Palmer

 

General and Special Lists

Missing believed drowned 26.2.1918

Widow School house, Glindye, Banchory, Kincaidshire

WO 339/13818

 

2nd Lt Peter Spence Miller

 

21898 Sapper and 2Lt General List IWT

Commissioned 9.9.1917

Drowned at sea 26.2.1918

Widow,  Dysant PO Box 52, Saskatchewan, Canada.

 

2nd Lt  John William Goodrick

 

General List

Drowned 26.2.1918

Mesopotamia 10.1.1918

WO 374/27983

Widow - 23 Malden Rd, Acton, London

 

2nd Lt James  Scott

 

General and Special lists

Drowned 26.2.1918

Widow  1679 Carter St, Montreal, Canada.

 

 

Edited 27 January , 2017 by Terry_Reeves

[Hywyn]

Many thanks for the additional info Terry.

[Guest]

Hi,

       My Grandfather's Brother, Sapper Ernest Allday is listed on your post! and after years of searching i am thrilled to finally have a lead, as to what exactly happened to My great uncle Ernest Henry Allday WR/335342. 

 

My Grandfather  is/was Frank Allday who served in the East Lancs 1914-1918 and was wounded 3 times, head, leg (almost amputated, but saved by a college pointing his revolver at the surgeon!) and lost a lung to gas. He was tall and chosen as a runner etc. born 1897 died 1987 aged 90!

 

His Brother Ernest is on the Basra Memorial list and its 100 years last month to the day listed missing 26th Feb 1918.

 

The understanding in the family and the story passed down thru generations had been that, Ernst Allday had died on a hospital ship on his way home from the dardanelles after receiving wounds there. We also believed he was one of the victims on the ship "Brittanica" but after research we found this to be wrong, as the 30 casualties of that ship were named and sadly accounted for.

 

We have his last letter home, which tells the family he is coming home and "has presents but will now bring them" This was his last letter and when i dig it out i will post the actual date.

 

We know he was wounded, but not apparently life threatening, although inherent modesty, and a desire not to alarm the loved ones at home, would have made him keep the exact details of his injuries secret until his arrival home?

 

After reading the above, it seems he either volunteered for extra duties on the way home, or found himself aboard another hospital ship which is now looking like the   Hospital Paddler-HP17 (aka SP17) on 26th February 1918? which would endorse what the family were told at the time that he was in fact on his way home, and on a hospital ship.

 

Any further information or details or ideas will be very much appreciated.

 

Sapper
ALLDAY, ERNEST HENRY
Service Number WR/355324

Died 26/02/1918

Inland Water Transport 
Royal Engineers

 

[MBrockway]

Useful information, including photos, on the hospital vessels in use in Mesopotamia in the Official History Medical Services General History, Vol. IV, pp. 658-665

 

Available online here:

https://archive.org/stream/medicalservicesg04macp#page/658/mode/2up

 

Mark

 

[MBrockway]

I notice that the table on p.665 of the OH volume above seems to suggest that H.P. 17 was a conversion of the steamship Medjidieh.

 

The Medjidieh is mentioned in the report of the Mesopotamia Parliamentary Commission, 1917, as bringing wounded men back to Basra from the Battle of Ctesiphon in Nov 1915.  See  HO 45/10838/331607 and  IOR/L/PS/20/257/1 in the National Archive, with a short transcript here:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/firstworldwar/transcripts/battles/meso_comm.htm

 

Or the full report available at the Qatar Digital Library here:

https://www.qdl.qa/en/archive/81055/vdc_100036338403.0x00004f

 

And there's more on the Medjidieh here:

 

 

The plans of the Medjidieh were used as the basis for a number of newly built ships sent out from the UK, so, on the other hand, the OH reference may mean that HP 17 was a conversion of one of these Medjedieh 'class' steamships.

 

 

[Hywyn]

On 19/08/2016 at 15:38, Hywyn said:

My intention is along the lines of listing the names/numbers  in case they/the info will be of use.

 

Glad that the above quote has come true for you Racingmad although I must say that the family lore does not exactly seem to fit the circumstances of this sinking. This vessel was on its way from UK to Mespot and was crewed by RE men for this purpose. Also, re Ernest being wounded in the Dardanelles and  volunteered etc etc for the jouney home is not a likely scenario for these circumstances. The Dardanelles (i.e Gallipoli) campaign was over in early 1916. This sinking was in Feb 1918. Family lore always has some degree of truth in them tat gets confused as time goes on. According to his record, Ernest (of 5 Earle Street, Millom), was sent to the Dardanelles in 1915  as Pte 3180 of 4th Bn East Lancs Regiment. He was sent back to the UK on 30 7 1915 and spent time with UK based units until eventually he was transferred to the RE and was posted to this vessel for its ill-fated journey.

 

 

Thanks for the additional info Martin.

 

 

Hywyn

[andy williams]

Hello All. New to this site but I am wondering if anyone can help me. My relative (James Colvin) is listed above as having died when SP17 Sunk. I am trying to find out more info, has anyone got anything to add to the above?

I have found out certain facts but some of them are contradictory, any advice?

Thanks

[charlie962]

17 minutes ago, andy williams said:

James Colvin

 

Hello Andy and welcome to the forum.

Are you trying to find more about the Ship, your relative or both ?

 

James Colvin has a Medal Index Card showing his number 297184 and WR/35536.

In the Soldiers Effects Register on Ancestry his War Gratuity (4pounds) and outstanding pay goes to his widow Lydia. He is noted as Drowned.

His marriage Cert of 1906 shows at that time he was aged 25 and a Seaman

He has a surviving service record here on Ancestry

 

Charlie

[andy williams]

Thanks Charlie. That is the first time that i have seen his No as 297184, i have seen the other No. i have also seen another site where someone (presumably a relative) was searching for info about him.

I am new to this researching stuff but find it very interesting. I suppose that I am looking for anything related to him really.

[charlie962]

Andy,

His Service record has quite a few details about him, including his enlistment (31/8/16 then a day later transferred to the Reserve) and mobilization 14/6/17.,

Appointed acting Corporal 22/8/17 with IWT at Glasgow,

Shown as Mesopotamia from 5/9/17. No specific embarkation or disembarkation record so difficult to follow what happened between 5/9/17 and his death 26/2/18. Did he ever get to Mesopotamia ?

 

The Royal Engineers were resonsible for the Inland Waterways. In Mesopotamia this was one of the principle ways of moving troops other than marching. Two huge rivers, the Tigris and the Euphrates and numerous smaller rivers and canals. There is a history of the IWT in Mesopotamia.

 

Charlie

 

Edited 12 October , 2018 by charlie962

[andy williams]

I think he served there after 5/9/17 till his death. but i have no way of knowing. i recently toured europe and tryed some some leads but went nowhere. i have had a lot of progress recently but am hoping for more. I have his death penny and find it all very fascinating. he is commemorated on the Basra war memorial/

[charlie962]

From the previous posts above we have:

Launched  13/12/17 Renfrew
Sailed    10/1/18 from Fowey for 'the East'

At Gib   ~  28/1/18  per Laing's record

Foundered 26/2/18  between Malta and Port Said

 

That seems a long time between depart South England  and sinking East Med. ?

 

Colvin was not part of the crew leaving UK and had apparently embarked from UK in Sept 1917.

 

So where did Colvin join the ship ?

 

There is a line on his service record between 'a/Cpl' and 'Missing' which is water damaged and illegible and not repeated on cleaned up version.

Edit-  This is probably about extra pay ie 

Edited 13 October , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

It is interesting to note that all those on board were former experienced seamen, either Merchant or Naval, before being appointed to RE IWT. Is there no additional info on the foundering or did she just disappear without trace?

[charlie962]

On 27/01/2017 at 11:20, Terry_Reeves said:

TNA  T1/12302  Folio 13459

I don't know whether there is anything in this file for ORs but it would involve a visit to TNA if Terry cannot enlighten us.

 

There is a bit of general background in this article:

 

[Terry_Reeves]

7 hours ago, charlie962 said:

I don't know whether there is anything in this file for ORs but it would involve a visit to TNA if Terry cannot enlighten us.

 

There is a bit of general background in this article:

 

The T1 file is specifically about the officers casualties. Essentially it is correspondence between two treasury officials about the pensions to  the NOK  of the deceased. It is quite disdainful.

 

 With regard to James Colvin, immediately he departed from Fowey  he would have been noted, for record purposes, as being as part of the Mesopotamia force.  I have noted the relay distances from various ports from Fowey to Mesopotamia taken from The Inland Water Transport in Mesopotamia  - Lt Co L Hall (1921). All distances are approximate.

 

Fowey-Gibraltar   12,000 miles

Gibraltar- Malta  1000 miles

Malta - Port Said 1000 miles

Suez-Aden  900 miles

Aden-Muscat  1250 miles

Muscat-Basrah  770 miles

 

It took a troopship 5 days to travel to Gibraltar.

 

When leaving Gibraltar., the authorities normally telegraphed  IWT Glasgow [telegraphic address "Sayer Inwater Glasgow"] about the departure of one of their vessels. These are recorded in the Gibraltar Command War Diary W095/5445.  I can't help with any more specific information I'm afraid.

 

TR

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 13 October , 2018 by Terry_Reeves

[MerchantOldSalt]

Well the last time I sailed from Fowey to Gibraltar is was a lot less than 12,000 miles, more like 1022 ish, but that is not the point.  The IWT needed qualified seamen to man their extraordinary mix of tugs, barges, train ferries, paddles steamers, stern and quarter wheelers, also river boats of all descriptions to cross the Channel supplying the Western Front and to get vessels of all descriptions to Mesopotamia, Salonika and even the Cameroons.

They weren't "former experienced seamen" they were very much current experienced seamen, the IWT advertised in the British newspapers for these men and got exactly what they wanted, Merchant Seamen, tug masters and crew, lightermen, bargemen, keelmen, and those like Colvin, a dock labourer, they trained so he became a "dredger hand" and seaman as his service record shows.

There were a huge number of river craft built in the UK for service on the rivers Tigris and Euphrates  they were shallow draft vessels unsuited to deep sea voyages, so it is no wonder that the voyages were hazardous and long, their time between ports and at sea entirely dependent on weather and sea conditions, the seamanship involved in delivering these vessels and tugs and barges was nothing short of extraordinary. But it was nothing new, British shipyards had been delivering these sort of ships around the world for years, for example the Irrawaddy Flotilla and all the vessels built for service on the rivers of India and in the Nigerian Marine.

 The Mediterranean may be considered to be a benign body of water but it can produce some of the worst weather and huge seas so it is not surprising that some of the river craft destined for Mesopotamia were lost en route, they were not designed to do that which they were asked to do.

Tony

[charlie962]

3 hours ago, Terry_Reeves said:

, immediately he departed from Fowey 

Terry,

Thanks for your reply re T1 file.

For Colvin, do we even know that he departed from Fowey ? Perhaps it was the standard port of departure. He is not on crew list in PII orders and his service file says to Mespot Sept 1917. He perhaps might have gone on another ship, gone sick at say Gibraltar or Malta, recovered then gone on HP17 ?  (ie the reverse luck of Barrow).  This rather than going all the way to Mespot then coming back to the Med to pick up HP17. Or would these (current) experienced seamen be used for crewing ships on those very hazardous ferry journeys, and thus do a number of runs,  do you think? I've looked at some of the other crew service files (quite a few survive) but they are very thin on detail.

eg

Burgon is shown as leaving for Mespot 13/12/17

Cato  is shown as embarking for Mespot 5/1/18

Laing is shown as leaving Fowey 10/1/18

 

Tony,

I take your point about 'current' rather than 'former', ie giving the correct emphasis that my loose wording lacked! I had previously read about ships being lost on the way from India and Burma. Brave men to attempt such ocean crossings in inland boats, even if they did a lot of coast-hugging.

Perhaps my question to Terry about 'ferry crews' would be more appropriately addressed to you?

 

Charlie