Unknown Sgt. Major (recorded), Royal Horse Guards

[brummell]

Just saw Laughton's latest - fascinating.

 

 

- brummell

 

[Muerrisch]

19 minutes ago, brummell said:

Grumpy, I agree with what you say; I am thinking about what else might have contributed to the identification of the rank as Sergeant Major.  A solitary brass crown wouldn't lead one to that conclusion, suggesting something else (in my opinion).  But this of course is similar in a way to the Kipling discussion and what or may not have been going through an exhumation party's minds, which we can't know.

 

- brummell

 

Yes the parallel to the Kipling case was strong in my mind. I have no difficulty in understanding/ forgiving sketchy information from the Graves parties .......... I could not have begun to do their job, let alone diligently.

[laughton]

The parallel to Kipling is also reflected in the matter of Corporal Waite, perhaps assisting in the identification of Corporal Eales (if that is correct). Remember that with Kipling and the trench map coordinates, it was also a case of the sole identified Canadian man on the COG-BR (Pte. Thomas McPherson) who told us that the grave location was incorrect. It was that memory that nudged me over to check the other men - it has solved a number of cases!

 

Great work and assistance from the team. But I don't know about these Canadians dabbling in the British Regiments! 

[kevinrowlinson]

From here- http://www.caparkinson.com/post/138874026531/victoriansword-full-dress-uniform-worn-by

 

 

Good to see the signallers, supposedly of 1st Life Guards, just before heading for France.

 

Just like Kipling there would be only one way to prove who was in a grave. It's not going to happen.

 

Kevin

[laughton]

I disagree in this case, as we have only the one man at that location. I am not saying that as fact at this point as more work is required, but this is a very similar case to many we have taken forward to the CWGC here in Canada.  I have to rely on the GWF Pals to come to the conclusion that there was NO OTHER time that the RHG were in that area other than May 1915. So far, it is my understanding that is the case.

 

When you have eliminated the impossible ... whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (1890)

 

[Muerrisch]

17 hours ago, kevinrowlinson said:

From here- http://www.caparkinson.com/post/138874026531/victoriansword-full-dress-uniform-worn-by

 

 

Good to see the signallers, supposedly of 1st Life Guards, just before heading for France.

 

Just like Kipling there would be only one way to prove who was in a grave. It's not going to happen.

 

Kevin

 

This is potentially a very useful photograph in that we have at least two NCO signallers recognisable as such by badges: both with two chevrons and crown, one an instructor with crossed flags above chevrons, one with crossed flags as a skill badge.

If LG and remainder of HC followed normal practice, the signalling team for the unit comprised one officer, one corporal of horse [=sergeant], and only one corporal, although lance-corporals were allowed one for each squadron.

Thus it is likely that we are seeing a full corporal and an unpaid lance-corporal signaller, both with two chevrons.

I hope to have the Peace and War establishments for HC soon, and these should lay down notes on lance-corporals.

[David_Underdown]

Haven't seen it on the thread yet, so it may be worth pointing out that Household Cavalry service records were (like those of the Foot Guards) maintained by the regiments, and so survived the main destruction of British Army service records by German bombing during the Second World War.  Unlike Foot Guards' records, the Household Cavalry records have been transferred to The National Archives, where they form record series WO 400 - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/household-cavalry-soldiers-service-records-1799-1920/ - unfortunately rank has not been transcribed.  The usual download fee applies (or free access onsite at Kew)

[Muerrisch]

In 1914-1918 there was NO official provision  for lance-corporals in the HC in either Peace or War Establishments [thanks Ron Clifton]. The army norm was that COs could appoint as many as they judged necessary so long as pay was not involved.

 

Nothing new there! However, the small cost of the appointment badges had to be borne from somewhere.

Edited 24 August , 2016 by Muerrisch
for rank read appointment

[MelPack]

A useful summary of the service papers of Cpl Eales here:

 

[Muerrisch]

Thank you ............. further proof if proof were needed.

[MelPack]

Grumpy

Spot on - as usual !

 

Just as an aside, members of the Eales family ran the Red Lion, Boreham, Chelmsford from 1902-1950:

http://pubshistory.com/EssexPubs/Boreham/redlion.shtml

Edited 25 August , 2016 by MelPack

[laughton]

So are we in agreement that it is Corporal Eales? If so I will initiate the report to David Avery.

[Muerrisch]

I fear that I was not interested in the case of Eales but only as regards the rank and rank badges of the Household Cavalry!

[MelPack]

15 hours ago, laughton said:

So are we in agreement that it is Corporal Eales? If so I will initiate the report to David Avery.

Richard

I think that you constructed a very compelling case with the initial mis-identification of the rank of Waite by reason of the crown and with May 1915 being the only occasion upon which the unit was in the recovery location.

If you would like a full copy of the service papers then drop me a pm and I will email them to you.

 

Ps The photograph in Kevin's post #29 remains the very worst example of male model disease that I have ever encountered.

[kevinrowlinson]

When you have eliminated the impossible ... whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (1890)

 

The problem here is that this is not the case.

While there are other possibilities I cannot see how one can be certain of anything 100 years after the event. I would suggest that the first hurdle to overcome is whether Cpl. Waite was correctly identified. From the Burial Reports Cpl. Waite's and Cpl Eales' entries are exactly the same for objects found, so how did they identify him? All the other men on Cpl. Waite's Burial Report who were identified had identity discs. I would suggest that it is possible that it may have been Cpl. Eales that was buried from the evidence I have seen.

However meticulous the men were when recovering soldiers for reburial I cannot see how one can rule out the possibility that other mistakes where not made, and not just the mans rank, which would at best lead one to a probability of who may have been buried as an unknown soldier.

 

Kevin

[laughton]

Checking on the location of Corporal Valentine William Eales #1341 on 13 May 1915, as compared to remains found at 28.I.11.a.5.7.

 

Narrative of the Operations of the 8th Cavalry Brigade on 13th May 1915 (page 71 of 729)

• holding part of trenches at Verlorenhoek-Hooge (my notes: Verlorenhoek @ 28.c.30.c.1.1 and Hooge at 28.I.18.b.3.6 - Sector I.18 is 1,500 yds due south of Sector C.30)
• brigade blown out of the trenches the night of 12th/13th
• Royal Horse Guards moved under heavy shell fire
• captured line of trenches subjected to tremendous fire
• Royal Horse Guards lost 69% of Officers, 41% N.C.O.'s and men
• an Officer (KIA) of the RHG was first into the German trench, closely followed by a Corporal of Horse

The regular pages of the war diary for May 1915 are here (page 64 of 729).

 

The locations would place Corporal Eales in the line heading to the German trenches east of Railway Wood Bellewaarde Farm.

[laughton]

What I need to find now is an answer to the question about the Corporal or the Corporal of the Horse. It is essential that we determine:

1. Were their ranks of both Corporal and Corporal of the Horse in the Great War?
2. If the answer to that is "no", then are the CWGC reports in error, as they show both ranks (see spreadsheet that follows)?
3. Were there any other ranks within the Royal Horse Guards that could have been confused with a Serjeant Major.

One of the interesting comments, although under the section in the modern Life Guards (Household Division) tells us a bit about why there were no Serjeants in the service of the Majesty (this link):

Quote

As gentlemen served in all ranks, they rejected the term Sergeant (associated with ‘servant’) in favour of Corporal of Horse, a tradition which persists.

 

Next we go take a look at the definitions that are on the site of the Household Cavalry Foundation. I had not seen the use of the terms "Corporal Major" or "Regimental Corporal Major" prior to these listings, so best to look at all the ranks listed during the Great War. No idea if these existed at that time. What the website says:

Quote

Corporal of Horse: The equivalent rank is Sergeant in the rest of the Army. Corporal of Horse is unique to the Household Cavalry.

 

Long Guard: When The Queen is in London, the Guard consists of 1 Officer, 1 Corporal-Major (who carries the Standard), 2 Non-Commissioned Officers, 1 Trumpeter and 10 Troopers. This is known as a Long Guard.

 

RCM: Regimental Corporal Major (also known as the Regimental Sergeant Major in other Regiments) as the Household Cavalry do not have sergeants because Queen Victoria thought Sergeant sounded too like servant. An appointment held by a Warrant Officer Class 1 (WO1) in the British Army as the senior Warrant Officer; in a unit with more than one WO1, the RCM is considered to be “first amongst equals”.

 

1914-1918 The Regiments deploy mounted for WWI, but also serve in the trenches as part of the Guards Machine Gun Battalions. Losses are heavy, but contrary to public perception, successful cavalry charges still take place.

 

The CWGC website tells us that there were only 104 deaths in the Great War, for all ranks, a surprising small number I thought. I have included all locations, as the important issue is not "where" but "what ranks were recorded". In the version I have posted here, I have removed the "Troopers", as well as the details about the UNIT, GRAVE and FAMILY. There were some I had not heard of before (marked blue), such as the Brevet Major (honourary ?), the Regimental Corporal Major and the Squadron Corporal Major - all of which died or were buried in the UK.

 

Those that are of interest because they are UNKNOWN are shown in red:

surname initials death rank country # Cemetery or Memorial HANBURY-TRACY A H C 03-12-15 Brevet Major United Kingdom   PETERSHAM (ST. PETER) CHURCHYARD BINNING G B H 12-01-17 Brigadier General United Kingdom   TYNINGHAME BURIAL GROUND PHILIPPS C E A 13-05-15 Captain Belgium '' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL CHETWYND-TALBOT C J A 08-01-15 Captain United Kingdom   INGESTRE (ST. MARY) CHURCHYARD MACKINTOSH A A 13-10-18 Captain USA   ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY WILSON H H 11-04-17 Captain France   FAUBOURG D'AMIENS CEMETERY, ARRAS BOWLBY G V S 13-05-15 Captain Belgium   YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL EALES V W 13-05-15 Corporal Belgium '1341' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL BAKER W H 14-04-17 Corporal France '1305' DUISANS BRITISH CEMETERY, ETRUN FARREN A 25-10-18 Corporal United Kingdom '2417' BROMPTON CEMETERY DIXON R 26-06-15 Corporal United Kingdom '1699' HIGHGATE CEMETERY CLAYBYN W A 18-10-14 Corporal Belgium '1688' YPRES TOWN CEMETERY WAITE C A 13-05-15 Corporal Belgium '1533' NEW IRISH FARM CEMETERY COLES T 19-05-17 Corporal United Kingdom '1195' READING CEMETERY WHITE C H 21-10-14 Corporal Belgium '1454' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL BROWNING M T S 29-10-14 Corporal Belgium '1296' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL COLE E F M 18-10-14 Corporal of Horse Belgium '1481' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL ERVIN H G 30-10-14 Corporal of Horse Belgium '1222' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL FEW A G T 30-10-14 Corporal of Horse Belgium '1412' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL MUNSON A H 01-04-17 Corporal of Horse United Kingdom '1589' COLCHESTER (ST. JOHN) CHURCHYARD HARPER W G G 28-04-16 Corporal of Horse France '1462' AIX-EN-ISSART CHURCHYARD HARRIS J C 30-10-14 Corporal of Horse Belgium '1054' LARCH WOOD (RAILWAY CUTTING) CEMETERY NELSON L J 19-05-18 Corporal of Horse France '1306' ETAPLES MILITARY CEMETERY WELLS W A 06-11-14 Corporal of Horse Belgium '1385' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL BURFIELD F H T 19-11-14 Lance Corporal Belgium '1475' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL DUNN P R 11-06-21 Lance Corporal United Kingdom '304168' BROMPTON CEMETERY DICKIE J M 24-12-16 Lance Corporal France '2279' BOULOGNE EASTERN CEMETERY DACK O 17-08-16 Lance Corporal France '1564' AUTHUILE MILITARY CEMETERY, AUTHUILLE HARPER F E A 30-10-14 Lance Corporal Belgium '1548' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL COMPTON S D 13-05-15 Lieutenant Belgium   YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL DAVSON T G 13-05-15 Lieutenant Belgium   YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL SALE R L 15-01-18 Lieutenant France   TINCOURT NEW BRITISH CEMETERY HUGHES G F 21-12-15 Lieutenant France   VIEILLE-CHAPELLE NEW MILITARY CEMETERY, LACOUTURE NAYLOR-LEYLAND G V 21-09-14 Lieutenant France   VENDRESSE CHURCHYARD WYNN-CARRINGTON A E S C R 19-05-15 Lieutenant United Kingdom   MOULSOE (ST. MARY) CHURCHYARD BAGOT A D 11-01-20 Lieutenant United Kingdom   HEVERSHAM (ST. PETER) CHURCHYARD PELHAM C S 30-10-14 Lieutenant Belgium   YPRES TOWN CEMETERY EXTENSION HEATH P V 04-09-14 Lieutenant France   BARON COMMUNAL CEMETERY BRASSEY H E 15-07-16 Lieutenant Colonel France   BOUZINCOURT COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION WILSON G C 06-11-14 Lieutenant Colonel Belgium   ZILLEBEKE CHURCHYARD CRICHTON H W 31-10-14 Major Belgium   ZANTVOORDE BRITISH CEMETERY McKERROW J R 21-09-20 Regimental Corporal Major United Kingdom '304041' BROMPTON CEMETERY LAMBTON F 30-10-14 Second Lieutenant Belgium   YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL PULLEN G H 13-05-15 Second Lieutenant Belgium   YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL BREESE W L 14-03-15 Second Lieutenant France   LONGUENESSE (ST. OMER) SOUVENIR CEMETERY HEARD R W D 23-06-18 Serjeant United Kingdom '1638' BROMPTON CEMETERY LINNELL R C 15-11-17 Squadron Corporal Major United Kingdom '1739' BROMPTON CEMETERY SHEAD J W E 27-11-18 Squadron Corporal Major United Kingdom '874' BROMPTON CEMETERY FETHON C P 20-02-18 Trumpeter United Kingdom '1199' HARTLEPOOL NORTH CEMETERY SCOTT A H W G 02-11-14 Trumpeter Belgium '1357' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

[Muerrisch]

QUOTE.

What I need to find now is an answer to the question about the Corporal or the Corporal of the Horse. It is essential that we determine:

1. Were their ranks of both Corporal and Corporal of the Horse in the Great War? YES
2. If the answer to that is "no", then are the CWGC reports in error, as they show both ranks (see spreadsheet that follows)?
3. Were there any other ranks within the Royal Horse Guards that could have been confused with a Serjeant Major. YES, PARTLY BECAUSE THERE WERE TWO GRADES AND THEREFORE TWO BADGES, OF SERGEANT MAJOR AFTER MAY 1915

You have my sympathy ............ few native Brits begin to understand, even those among the military

Identification of the dead often depended on badges, so I include the badges for 1914-1918 worn on Service Dress.

 

Starting at the bottom:

TROOPER                                       no rank badge

 

Lance-Corporal                              badge two chevrons point down upper arm with crown above [nb there was no provision in the Household Cavalry for the appointment of troopers as LCpls, and absolutely no meaans for paying them. This is in contrast to the rest of the army]. The crown badge is a regimental distinction and is common to all Household Cavalry ranking.

 

Corporal                                         badge two chevrons with crown above [thus there was no way of telling one from a LCpl.] 

Cpl was a full rank, and could only be lost by formal administrative action such as Court Martial

 

**** see footnote

 

Corporal of Horse                        badge three chevrons with crown above [sergeant equivalent]

 

**** c. 1960 a new appointment was introduced, Lance-Corporal of Horse. Badge is three chevrons and crown, and was to enable full corporals to be on a par with Lance-sergeants of Foot Guards, for example in Messing privileges

 

If needs be I will detail all those senior, but it gets even more complicated.

[Ron Clifton]

(Post deleted - it replied to a post of 2016 on the previous page and Muerrisch has since made the point,)

 

Ron

Edited 19 January , 2018 by Ron Clifton

[Ron Clifton]

3 hours ago, laughton said:

the Brevet Major (honourary ?

Brevet rank was a step in Army rank without a similar step in regimental rank. It carried extra pay of 2s a day (if a captain) and was given to captains, majors and lieutenant-colonels for distinguished service in the field. It also seems to have been given to military attaches.

 

Ron

[Gareth Davies]

7 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

There were both lance-corporals and lance-corporals of horse in the Household Cavalry. They were distinct ranks and the latter was equivalent to lance-serjeant.

 

Ron

 

Not during the Great War.  The LCOH rank was created in my lifetime.

[Muerrisch]

16 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said:

 

Not during the Great War.  The LCOH rank was created in my lifetime.

 

See my #43 above. I don't think LCOH is a RANK either, because, as I understand the arcane matter, it is an appointment for a substantive corporal, with corporal's pay.  Does anyone know for sure please?

[Ron Clifton]

1 hour ago, Gareth Davies said:

 

Not during the Great War.  The LCOH rank was created in my lifetime.

I know. That's why I had already deleted the post.

 

Ron

[Muerrisch]

He knows, you know.

[laughton]

Main Question:

 

Were there both CORPORALS and CORPORAL OF THE HORSE in the Royal Horse Guard during the Great War?

Edited 20 January , 2018 by laughton
see next post, Grumpy says delete "THE"