Unknown Sgt. Major (recorded), Royal Horse Guards

[Muerrisch]

 #43 above. 

 

there is no "THE" 

Edited 19 January , 2018 by Muerrisch

[laughton]

Part 1: The Question of Rank

 

I have struck out "THE" in the previous post, Canadian error.  I appreciate the time you are taking to answer my questions.

 

I should have clarified my question. Post #43 did answer that the RANKS existed, although I cannot find any confirmation of that - the RHG web site appears to have been hacked and the image is also gone. Many of the sites have no mention of the rank of CORPORAL in the Royal Horse Guard, which I am beginning to suspect is because they are all dealing with current ranks and appointments, thus the old CORPORAL is now shown as LANCE CORPORAL OF HORSE (on appointment as soon as the man attained the rank of Corporal).

 

What I was trying to determine with the "refined" question was whether there was a CORPORAL (a body not a rank) in the RHG in May 1915. The question stems from post #24. Here they identified Corporal Waite #1533, where he too had been identified as a Serjeant Major on COG-BR #1824470. Note that on GRRF #1823421 he was initially identified as a Company Serjeant Major (C.S.M.), before it was changed to Corporal. I checked the 2013 topic on this (Company Sergeant Major, not a rank but a position) and specifically posts #11 and #12.

 

The CWGC site most certainly has both ranks listed, as shown in the spreadsheet, but the CWGC records also contain a lot of errors. I assumed that there were both, as that is what is shown on the Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial (see #1868379).

 

If I am getting anywhere with this (questionable for sure!) then we have a G.R.U. looking at a set of remains that has three (3) chevrons pointing down, with a metal crown above. They take that as someone with a rank of Serjeant, that may have had an appointment as a Company Serjeant Major. In the Royal Horse Guard, that person was then a CORPORAL OF HORSE. It appears that a current Lance Corporal (there are 5 listed as KIA) would, as previously stated in post #43, would have two (2) chevrons, also with a metal crown above, the same as if it was a CORPORAL in the Great War. Therefore, the G.R.U. should not have confused a Serjeant Major or Company Serjeant Major with a Corporal but they could have confused it with a Corporal of Horse. What works against this is the case of Corporal Waite, unless Waite was actually a Corporal of Horse. The same would then have to apply to Corporal Eales #1341 who must also have been a Corporal of Horse, as he is the only one in the correct area where the remains were found.

 

Part 2: The 1014 War Diaries of The Royal Horse Guards

 

I finally found some of the information under WO 95/1154, as they were in the 7th Cavalry Brigade in October 1914. The question I am trying to answer here was if any of the RHG men were in the area where the remains were recovered, as the spreadsheet (Post #42), has two (2) CORPORAL and three (3) CORPORAL OF HORSE that need to be placed. The first one fell on 18 October 1914, so we can go to the 3rd Cavalry Division, 7th Cavalry Brigade Headquarters (page 8 of 452). It states that "RHGds who were in advance became engaged with about 150 hostile cyclists. The latter retired to N.W. of village followed by the Regt." They were at the cross roads south of OOstnieuwkerke, which my trench map says is at 20.W.3.d.4.7.

 

The next death was on the 21st, when the Division was forced to fall back on the Zonnebeke-Langemarck road (28.D.22.c.0.0 to 20.U.22.d.8.2), so still about 6,000 yards or more north of where the remains were located at 28.I.11.a.5.7. They then moved closer to that area, as they went into billets at Zillebeke (28.I.22.b.8.0). One (1) man is reported killed, so that must have been Corporal White, while they were still in Zillebeke. The next morning the brigade marched to Hooge, as a reserve to the division, so definitely they are in the area after the death, but not before.

 

The next deaths were on the 29th and 30th of October 1914 in the vicinity of Zandvoorde (28.P.3.a.7.3), which is about 5,000 yards southeast of Hooge. Three men of the RHG are reported wounded. On the 30th, the Germans were shelling Zandvoorde Ridge. The war diary reports (page 13 of 452) "the Sqdn holding centre section of line held by Royal Horse Guards had been blown out of their trenches". That page has the first reference I have seen to them being called the "Blues", when they were retiring from the ridge. They were moving south towards Klein Zillebeke (28.I.36.b.3.1).

 

I see nothing in the October 1914 war diary to lead me to believe that one of five (5) men of The Royal Horse Guard was at the location where the remains were recovered at 28.I.11.a.5.7. They may have passed by, or through that area, but there is no reference to casualties in that area.

[Guest]

I am very late to this thread. My observations:

 

1. The CWGC lists  when pared down to missing (presumed killed) NCOs of the RHG list only nine men over  seven dates:

 

'1481'    Corporal of Horse    COLE    EDMUND FRANK MORTIMER           18/10/1914    YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
'1454'    Corporal    WHITE    CHARLES HENRY                                               21/10/1914    YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
'1296'    Corporal    BROWNING    MONTAGUE THEODORE SPINDLER    29/10/1914    YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
'1548'    Lance Corporal    HARPER    FRANK EDWIN AUGUSTUS              30/10/1914    YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
'1222'    Corporal of Horse    ERVIN    HUGH GLASS                                      30/10/1914    YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
'1412'    Corporal of Horse    FEW    ARTHUR GEORGE THOMAS                30/10/1914    YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
'1385'    Corporal of Horse    WELLS    WILLIAM APPLEYARD                     06/11/1914    YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
'1475'    Lance Corporal    BURFIELD    FRANK HENRY THOMAS               19/11/1914    YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
'1341'    Corporal    EALES    VALENTINE WILLIAM                                         13/05/1915    YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
 

2. Four went missing at Zandvoorde and can be eliminated....leaving five candidates on five dates: 18th, 21st, Oct 14 and 6th, 19th Nov 14 and 13th May 15.

3. A comparison of the dates with the diary does not put the RHG on the north side of the Menin Road on most of these dates. All their actions took place south of the Menin Road axis with the notable exception of the last date; a day of high casualties. 

4. A third of the Household Cavalry Composite Regt were drawn from the RHG. This unit operated until 11th Nov, so the dates need to be checked against the HCCR as well - if only to eliminate these possibilities.

5. Dates and Locations:

 

...................................HCCR..................................................RHG

18th Oct 14............Messines...............................Roulers (Roselaere)

21st Oct 14............Halte.......................................Zonnebeke trenches  billeted at Voomezeele

29th Oct 14............Hollebeke..............................Zandvoorde

30th Oct 14...........Wytschaete............................Zandvoorde

6th Nov 14..............Fontaine Hoek..................... Verbrandenmolen (billets) to Zillebeke and Klein Zillebeke then back to Verbrandenmolen

19th Nov 14..............disbanded...........................Brielen billets. trenches at Zwartelen

13th May 15..............N/A.......................................trenches between Ypres-Zonnebeke Road and Ypres Menin Rd

 

The last date puts the RHG in Reserve trenches in this triangle of land in the vicinity of the body. Note the diary records the 10th Royal Hussars (6th Cav Bde) were on their immediate right. The 10th RH diary puts them close to GHQ at Potijze. This further strengthens the argument. It is exactly in the right spot. For my money the man is most likely to be 1341 Cpl Ventine William Eales.

 

Edit 1. HQ 8th Cav Bde (of which RHG was part in May 1915) has a very detailed account of the action WO 95/1156. Heavy casualties. 

Apologies if this is already understood. A difficult thread to retrace. Any mistakes are mine. MG

 

Edit 2. HQ 3rd Cav Div War Dairy Wo 95/1141/1 has a map of the dispositions on 13th May 1915 putting RHG in exactly the right position.

 

Click

 

 

 

 

Edited 29 January , 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

You may wish to contact the RHG and tell them one of their missing men has been found. 

[laughton]

I would say that about wraps up this case! Good find on that map.

 

I have bumped him up on the list to the "To Be Submitted". Complete list is here: 

 

 

Edited 30 January , 2018 by laughton

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, laughton said:

I would say that about wraps up this case! Good find on that map.

 

I have bumped him up on the list to the "To Be Submitted". Complete list is here: 

 

 

Laughton - excuse my ignorance in this matter but is there a specific grave marker for this unknown soldier? i.e can the CWGC (assuming it agrees) now give him a gravestone? 

[laughton]

Yes there is an existing grave and a headstone. Details as follows:

 

 

1. La Brique Military Cemetery No.2, 
   • West-Vlaanderen, Belgium
   • TMC 28.C.26.d.50.25
2. Plot 1 Row T Grave 7
   • Grave Registration Report Form 2127803
     "Roy. Horse Gds. Unknown Serjt. Major"
   • Headstone Schedule 1851604
      "Unknown British Serjt. Major" (note they dropped the "Royal Horse Guards", probably because none were missing)
     "Known Unto God"
   • GPS to actual grave headstone
      50°51'53.42"N  2°53'39.31"E
3. Cemetery Schematic
   • CWGC Link

Now begins the long process of preparing the report to the CWGC specifications, obtaining a case number and then  ....... waiting. You can see several examples of the reports on my web site: http://laughton.ca/publications/unknown-project/

 

Any other questions, just ask.

 

Richard

 

Edited 30 January , 2018 by laughton

[ss002d6252]

Eales has surviving service records - he is shown as killed in action on 12 May 15. On 30 Jan 15 he was reduced to corporal from acting corporal of horse.

Whether a corporal / corporal of horse's uniform be confused with a sergeant major  is the question. Would Eales have still been wearing sufficient rank details to be confused with a sgt major ?

His record shows;

Craig

Edited 30 January , 2018 by ss002d6252

[Muerrisch]

Whether a corporal / corporal of horse's uniform be confused with a sergeant major  is the question.

 

Yes is the answer until May/June 1915. The emboldened ranks/ appointments both wore the three chevrons and crown.

[laughton]

I am still looking for period images of the insignia. In the process I found this two (2) volume historic book:

 

THE STORY OF THE HOUSEHOLD CAVALRY
BY CAPTAIN SIR GEORGE ARTHUR BART. LATE SECOND LIFE GUARDS
LONDON
ARCHIBALD CONSTABLE AND COMPANY LIMITED 1909

 

The Story of the Household Cavalry - Volume 1

 

The Story of the Household Cavalry - Volume 2

 

Take note that this was written in 1909 so terms such as "as they are now" are not current.

• Quote

   

  • The duties attached to the three grades of Non-Commissioned Officers were always much the same as they are now. The name SERJEANT (Latin serviens), in the military sense, as in the legal, originally denoted a position of subordination to one of superior rank. Like the Roman centurion, he is a man "under authority" though " having soldiers under" him. In the Household Cavalry to this day, as formerly in all regiments of horse, the grade of Serjeant is unknown, the corresponding title being Corporal of Horse. The name CORPORAL (Italian caorale) means leader of his section. 
     
  • In the Household Cavalry the four Grades of N.C.O.'s are those of LANCE-CORPORAL, CORPORAL, CORPORAL OF HORSE, and CORPORAL MAJOR.* Of these last one is appointed to each squadron, while others of this rank perform staff duties. Each of the three Regiments, as already stated, has a REGIMENTAL CORPORAL MAJOR, who is a warrant officer. The title Lance-Corporal is said to be derived from the Italian lanspesade, a horse-soldier who, having lost his steed, was affiliated to the infantry until he could replace it. He enjoyed higher pay than his fellows, was prone to give himself airs, and insisted on ranking and consorting with the Corporals.

   

   

I found a badge image of the Corporal of Horse with a Crown and two Chevrons, but it is for 1943 (see page 17):

https://archive.org/details/RankAndBadgesInTheArmyNavyRaf-1943?

 

The hunt continues!

 

[ss002d6252]

2 hours ago, laughton said:

I am still looking for period images of the insignia. In the process I found this two (2) volume historic book:

 

THE STORY OF THE HOUSEHOLD CAVALRY
BY CAPTAIN SIR GEORGE ARTHUR BART. LATE SECOND LIFE GUARDS
LONDON
ARCHIBALD CONSTABLE AND COMPANY LIMITED 1909

 

The Story of the Household Cavalry - Volume 1

 

The Story of the Household Cavalry - Volume 2

 

Take note that this was written in 1909 so terms such as "as they are now" are not current.

•  

I found a badge image of the Corporal of Horse with a Crown and two Chevrons, but it is for 1943 (see page 17):

https://archive.org/details/RankAndBadgesInTheArmyNavyRaf-1943?

 

The hunt continues!

 

WW1 Corporal of Horse according to the description


https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/407998047466650260/?lp=true

Craig

[laughton]

Thanks Craig! 

 

That appears to be the one that MelPack posted here but it did not confirm that was on a "Corporal of Horse". I will see if I can get the original reference.

 

Richard

[laughton]

Others may have noticed that the web site of the Household Cavalry (https://householdcavalry.info/) has been hacked, so it was not initially possible to retrieve the information in some of these posts. I did manage to get copies back off the Internet Archive Wayback Machine, which I have printed to PDF and placed on our MediaFire server. The two documents are here:

 

http://www.mediafire.com/file/0lfyhbvvxgcg49m/HOUSEHOLD_CAVALRY_1882_-_1917.pdf

 

http://www.mediafire.com/file/r06d3232avlrjla/HOUSEHOLD_CAVALRY_MOUNTED_REGIMENT_-_WOs_%26_ORs_ORDERS_OF_DRESS.pdf

[ss002d6252]

42 minutes ago, laughton said:

Others may have noticed that the web site of the Household Cavalry (https://householdcavalry.info/) has been hacked, so it was not initially possible to retrieve the information in some of these posts. I did manage to get copies back off the Internet Archive Wayback Machine, which I have printed to PDF and placed on our MediaFire server. The two documents are here:

 

http://www.mediafire.com/file/0lfyhbvvxgcg49m/HOUSEHOLD_CAVALRY_1882_-_1917.pdf

 

http://www.mediafire.com/file/r06d3232avlrjla/HOUSEHOLD_CAVALRY_MOUNTED_REGIMENT_-_WOs_%26_ORs_ORDERS_OF_DRESS.pdf

I think rather than being hacked the registration of the site lapsed as it now shows the domain as being officially registered to an address in Hanoi.

Craig

Edited 15 April , 2018 by ss002d6252

[laughton]

For those that have an interest in the 3rd Cavalry Division in the period when the NCOs of the Royal Horse Guard were lost in October - November 1914, I came across a summary of operations for that period. You will need access to Ance$try to use this link:

 

Start of "War Diary of 3rd Cavalry Division Summary"

 

There were a collection of other interesting notes, which appear to bounce around by date:

 

2nd Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards 16 October 1914

 

Report of 7th Cavalry Brigade 27 October 1914

 

Report on Operations of the 3rd Cavalry Division 30 October to 3rd November 1914

 

Later on there is the November war diary summary, which covers the period when Corporal of Horse Wells #1385 was killed:

 

War Diary 3rd Cavalry Division 1st - 22nd November 1914

 

This has all been very useful in pinpointing the location of the Royal Horse Guards during the 1914 period, thus confirming they were not in the location where the remains were recovered.

 

Once it moves into 1915 we find the report for the period when Corporal Eales #1341 was killed near Railway Wood:

 

Report of Operations 3rd Cavalry Division 11th - 14th May 1915

 

That report also contains disposition sketches, similar to one previously posted, but at different times of the day. The sketch at 4:45 pm shows the Royal Horse Guards have moved to just north or Railway Woods.

 

Absolutely fascinating, particularly to a Canadian who knows so little of the Great War prior to April 1915.

Edited 19 April , 2018 by laughton
typo corrected

[laughton]

Just checking on something! This is a "snip" from the COG-BR from Corporal Waite of the Horse Guards used in a previous post to demonstrate the error between Serjeant Major and Corporal.

 

 

Looking for any "loose threads", I had to ask myself the question:

 

When they said "Crown and Numeral", did they mean "numeral" as in a "pip" for a Second Lieutenant, or did they mean a "numeral" as in the number on the disc?

 

IF they meant a Second Lieutenant Numeral, then the man in Waite's grave is Second Lieutenant Guy Harper Pullen, the only missing Second Lieutenant of the Royal Horse Guards at that location on 13 May 1915.

 

The answer may be in the record of the man above in Grave 32.C.23 as he was Private C. McMenemy S/40663 of the 7th Bn Cameron Highlanders. What is important is that he was identified by the "Damaged Disc and Numeral". That implies that whoever made this record is referring to a numeric recording, not a pip.

 

This is more or less confirmed in the recording for the UBS in 33.F.25 on the same COG-BR where they refer to the "numeral" as what was recorded on a spoon.

 

That would explain how they identified that the Corporal was WAITE and not EALES, but they do not mention where they found the "numeral".

 

Comments?

[laughton]

Thought I should also look at how they classified the 1st and 2nd Life Guards. These are the only ones that have COG-BR data (which is hyperlinked):

 

Name	#	CWGC Rank	1st Life Guards Rank	COG-BR Rank	Reference
Rose	2569	Corporal of Horse	A/Cpl of Horse	Sergeant	1819471
Clay	2947	Corporal		Corporal	1819683
Legett	2880	Corporal of Horse		A/Cpl of Horse	1816377
Name	#	CWGC Rank	2nd Life Guards Rank	COG-BR Rank	Reference
Ellison	2405	Corporal of Horse		Corporal Major	1816367
Butler	2846	Lance Corporal		Lance Corporal	2163477

 

The "Corporal Major" (Ellison) of the 2nd Life Guards had an exhumation sheet: see SPEC-EXH 1816250

• Cord Breeches
• Corporals Chevrons and Crown
• Field Service Dress

Edited 21 April , 2018 by laughton
added Exhumation for Corporal Major

[kevinrowlinson]

On 4/19/2018 at 14:16, laughton said:

Just checking on something! This is a "snip" from the COG-BR from Corporal Waite of the Horse Guards used in a previous post to demonstrate the error between Serjeant Major and Corporal.

 

 

Looking for any "loose threads", I had to ask myself the question:

 

When they said "Crown and Numeral", did they mean "numeral" as in a "pip" for a Second Lieutenant, or did they mean a "numeral" as in the number on the disc?

 

IF they meant a Second Lieutenant Numeral, then the man in Waite's grave is Second Lieutenant Guy Harper Pullen, the only missing Second Lieutenant of the Royal Horse Guards at that location on 13 May 1915.

 

The answer may be in the record of the man above in Grave 32.C.23 as he was Private C. McMenemy S/40663 of the 7th Bn Cameron Highlanders. What is important is that he was identified by the "Damaged Disc and Numeral". That implies that whoever made this record is referring to a numeric recording, not a pip.

 

This is more or less confirmed in the recording for the UBS in 33.F.25 on the same COG-BR where they refer to the "numeral" as what was recorded on a spoon.

 

That would explain how they identified that the Corporal was WAITE and not EALES, but they do not mention where they found the "numeral".

 

Comments?

 

I think it would be better if you were acquainted with what "numeral" actually was when found on a body. The CWGC gives it's own glossary, https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead-and-cemeteries/glossary. I would suggest it was how they knew what regiment a man belonged to, not what number he may have had that may had been found on something.

 

The biggest problem I have with your deductions is your natural assumption that you can discount all known graves. This implies that any man reburied years later was correctly identified. On your other thread, 

you start by illustrating a known identified man (some ten years later), 2405 CoH Ellison and his special exhumation sheet, together with an unknown Trooper. You find importance in one mans item recovered (white coat) yet dismiss the "Corporals Chevrons" in CoH Ellison's case when you deduce he must have been wearing 3 stripes. You could also probably help yourself if you personally looked at each mans service records. One would have to question whether CoH Ellison was correctly identified, not least from the height differences given on his report and service records.

 

I think the question is whether one wants to try and correctly identify any UBS graves, which would possibly mean proving some were incorrectly identified, or just accept those will be excluded and get a name on any UBS grave that may fit the bill.

 

Kevin

 

 

[laughton]

Thanks Kevin, I have no problem with anyone challenging me on what I have been doing. Damn colonists messing with the British army!

There are two topics mixed up here now, so I will address the issues of the 2nd Life Guards on that page.

[kevinrowlinson]

16 minutes ago, laughton said:

Thanks Kevin, I have no problem with anyone challenging me on what I have been doing. Damn colonists messing with the British army!

There are two topics mixed up here now, so I will address the issues of the 2nd Life Guards on that page.

 

And the issues with this case?

 

You still haven't convinced me that it was possible that Cpl. Waite was misidentified for Cpl. Eales. Your argument for it being Cpl. Waite is, in my opinion, totally incorrect. Your question, "When they said "Crown and Numeral", did they mean "numeral" as in a "pip" for a Second Lieutenant, or did they mean a "numeral" as in the number on the disc?", and subsequent proof it was him from his number, is totally against what the CWGC actually gives in its glossary for numeral; a soldiers shoulder title. This was how they identified he was in the RHG.

 

Without repeating what I wrote in post #40, while there is any possibility that any man may have been misidentified, at any time, it is impossible to definitely say who lays in an unnamed grave. There is only one way for that and it's not going to happen.

 

Kevin

[laughton]

On 8/31/2016 at 09:31, kevinrowlinson said:

However meticulous the men were when recovering soldiers for reburial I cannot see how one can rule out the possibility that other mistakes where not made, and not just the mans rank, which would at best lead one to a probability of who may have been buried as an unknown soldier.

 

I agree - completely. Have you discussed this with the CWGC? I would be interested in the response that you received.

 

If you disagree with the identification of Corporal Waite, you should raise that issue with the CWGC. If you have compelling evidence now, I will notify David Avery that I am "pulling the report" on Corporal Eales, pending their response on the matter of Corporal Waite.

 

I am doing that on the case of 2nd Lieutenant Kipling, so I do understand.

 

All the best,

 

Richard

[kevinrowlinson]

12 hours ago, laughton said:

Have you discussed this with the CWGC?

 

Why ever should I? I haven't submitted a report suggesting a that a UBS grave is definitely Cpl. Eales, and on the evidence in this thread I never would. This is exactly the same as the Kipling case; you can only give a probable identity for a grave, not who is definitely buried there. I find it ironic that you are doing exactly the same thing that got Kipling's name on a gravestone yet you suggest you have submitted a report for his grave entry to be overturned.

 

Given the Kipling case I am not convinced the CWGC actually cares that much though. Hopefully they will show on their site those names that have been "identified" in the last few years so any family member can have access to the data for how, and why, it was accepted. They then can make up their own minds whether to believe it.

 

Kevin

[laughton]

I have advised David Avery that the report has been challenged and pulled. I will try to find out if there was an error with the identification of Corporal Waite prior to moving forward.

Richard

[laughton]

On 8/31/2016 at 09:31, kevinrowlinson said:

When you have eliminated the impossible ... whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (1890)

 

The problem here is that this is not the case.

While there are other possibilities I cannot see how one can be certain of anything 100 years after the event. I would suggest that the first hurdle to overcome is whether Cpl. Waite was correctly identified. From the Burial Reports Cpl. Waite's and Cpl Eales' entries are exactly the same for objects found, so how did they identify him? All the other men on Cpl. Waite's Burial Report who were identified had identity discs. I would suggest that it is possible that it may have been Cpl. Eales that was buried from the evidence I have seen.

However meticulous the men were when recovering soldiers for reburial I cannot see how one can rule out the possibility that other mistakes where not made, and not just the mans rank, which would at best lead one to a probability of who may have been buried as an unknown soldier.

 

Kevin

 

This is the earlier post #40 that Kevin has referenced. I suspect that when I read this in August 2016 I was not aware that there was a serious concern with the identification of Corporal Waite.

 

My delay from August 2016 to January 2018 was due to the fact that I was unable to check the war diaries for these events. I felt it better to either leave it to those in the UK with access or to wait until I had made the decision to go to Ancestry World, which I have now done.

 

So now the task at hand is to deal with the identification of Corporal Waite #1533 of the Royal Horse Guards. I introduced Corporal Waite into this case as evidence that the GRU had made the same mistake with the unidentified remains in Plot 32 Row C Grave 24 of the New Irish Farm Cemetery, labelling him as a Serjeant Major based on the "Crown and Numeral". The other set of remains were in the La Brique Military Cemetery Nos. 2 and had been identified as an Unknown British Serjeant Major of the Royal Horse Guards on the basis of "Crown and Buttons". There is a slight differentiation here in that although both cases had the crown, one had buttons and one had the numeral.

 

The additional information for the remains in 33.F.25 and 32.C.24 at New Irish Farm Cemetery relates to a code, for which I have no knowledge (Ru/48135 and Ru/4254BL). That differs from the others that have the "EF/X" code, which we know to be "Effects". The spoon in 33.F.19 was considered an "effect" but not n 33.F.25.

 

On checking a number of those, I found a new set of COG-BR documents. I will need to retrieve those and come back to this as many have the "Ru" code.

[laughton]

So far I have not found anything specific about Waite and Eales that would indicate that the identification of Waite was incorrect. I do, however, understand what I think is the main point is that any identification can be questioned, the details dependant on the form of the identification. I for one always questioned any that had an identification when the remains were buried in a ground sheet with a number, or a single item like a spoon.

 

I was looking back at the war diaries and it would appear to me that the only way they could have separated the two men was on the basis of where they were at the time they were killed. The problem with that is that I don't see any information that specific, unless that is what is in those "Ru" documents, whatever those are.

 

It would appear from the war diary (see page 368 of 413) that the remains that were identified as Corporal Waite at 28.I.5.d.3.0 would have been after the 10:25 am order to send the Royal Horse Guards to protect the left flank of the 6th Cavalry Brigade. This shows on Sketch B, which is referenced in relation to the time of 4:45 pm where it says the Blues were pushed forward to a position along the road running N.N.W. from Railway Wood (I.11.b). The other set of remains were found to the west at 28.I.11.a.5.7.

 

Is it possible that this information existed? I have no idea. This differs from the case of 2nd Lieutenants Kipling and Law where we were able to get a general fix on their positions.

 

I took a look at where these areas were on the trench map relative to the sketch. The only way I know how to superimpose the images easily is to use the "Layer Function" in GOOGLE EARTH, so we have 3 layers:

1. Google Earth with the Trench Map
2. Google Earth with the Situation Sketch
3. Google Earth with Both Overlays

The base for the Royal Horse Guards shown in the earlier sketches has them just east of the G.H.Q. Line in the vicinity of West Farm, which would be the lower sector of 28.I.10.b.

 

If Corporal Waite was properly identified then I see no other candidates for the remains at 28.I.11.a.5.7. I thought perhaps there was some evidence in the war diaries or records that I had not seen. If there is, I would be most interested in that information.

 

I am not sure if the Service Records can add more, they appear not to accurate, as they have Eales killed at Frezenberg Ridge (see post link). They were not there on that date. I do not know what is in the Service Record for Corporal Waite.