Cameron Highlander or Lovat Scouts?

[Lyndale]

Dear Forum,

This photograph is of Temp 2nd Lt. David McDonald, commissioned 4.2.15 Queens Own Cameron Highlanders (born Edinburgh July 1891) who, according to his MIC, landed in France on 30.9.15 to serve with 7th (Service) Bn Queens Own Cameron Highlanders. He returned sick three months later and transferred to the MGC, same rank, on 8.1.16 and served in France a second time from 17.6.16 to 10.1.17 (source: Casualty Form - Active Service, found in his personal file: long number 81600 at TNA WO 339/34212). Seemingly loosing his commission (no information in his file) he next crops up on the same MIC (thus must have gone overseas a third time) as 264593 Sgt David McDonald R.F.A., a number sequence that appears to have been issued by the18.

 

R.F.A. about Feb-Apr 1918. Family descendants have been told that the uniform and bonnet is that of the Lovat Scouts, rather than that of the Q.O.C.H. infantry, but there is no record of this man serving with Lovat Scouts and I'm seeking a second opinion of the regimental identity of this uniform.

 

Thanks in advance, Lyndale.     

[Waddell]

I don't believe he is wearing a Lovat Scouts uniform. The Lovat Scouts wore a dark bonnet with black and white dicing. (I can't make out what is on the bonnet in the image). I would expect collar badges to be worn if he was Lovat Scout and most images I have seen they usually have the tunic with three buttons on the sleeve cuffs.

 

Scott

[Ron Clifton]

You don't have to look at details of the bonnet or cuffs. He is wearing a kilt, therefore not Lovat Scouts which were yeomanry (mounted troops). He may of course have been in 10th Bn Q.O.Cameron Highlanders, which was formed in Egypt from the dismounted Lovat Scouts.

 

Ron

[gordon92]

Even after their reformation into the 10th Camerons, the sources I have indicate that they continued to wear the uniform of the Lovat Scouts.  Until now I had not seen a photo of a Lovat Scout in a kilt except for a piper and that was post Great War.  Interesting and perplexing.

[Guest]

Not sure it help any but wouldn't a Lovat Scout piper wear a kilt (not that he looks like a piper)

 

Mike

[gordon92]

41 minutes ago, Skipman said:

Not sure it help any but wouldn't a Lovat Scout piper wear a kilt (not that he looks like a piper)

 

Mike

 

Correct.  In checking my sources, the pipe bands of the Lovat Scouts originate from 1903 when they reformed into two regiments.  They wore kilts of Hunting Fraser tartan.

[rolt968]

I am going to stick my neck out and say that the picture shows a non-TF officer of the Cameron Highlanders.

 

Ever since I saw the picture I have been troubled by the bonnet.

Now I see that it is distorted by having either dark glasses or goggles pushed on to the front. (It's quite a formal photo - had he forgotten they were there?)

 

Roger M

[gordon92]

6 hours ago, rolt968 said:

I am going to stick my neck out and say that the picture shows a non-TF officer of the Cameron Highlanders.

 

Ever since I saw the picture I have been troubled by the bonnet.

Now I see that it is distorted by having either dark glasses or goggles pushed on to the front. (It's quite a formal photo - had he forgotten they were there?)

 

Roger M

 

Upon closer inspection of the photo, you could be right.  The cap badge shows none of the transparency one would expect from the hollow Lovat Scouts badge and would appear to be a better match for the Cameron badge.  Another point: The crown of the Balmoral is almost certainly drab rather than the dark blue of the Lovat's Balmoral.

 

A good spot, Roger!  Could you explain why you said a non-TF officer?

[rolt968]

18 hours ago, gordon92 said:

 

Upon closer inspection of the photo, you could be right.  The cap badge shows none of the transparency one would expect from the hollow Lovat Scouts badge and would appear to be a better match for the Cameron badge.  Another point: The crown of the Balmoral is almost certainly drab rather than the dark blue of the Lovat's Balmoral.

 

A good spot, Roger!  Could you explain why you said a non-TF officer?

 

As with all these kinds of things, there certainly were many exceptions - particularly in less "formal" circumstances in France. Having said that, this looks like a photo taken on an occasion, if not a formal photo. On balance, I would have expected to see the collar badges and "T" for a TF commission as early as 1915ish.

 

(Incidentally the glasses/ goggles had me baffled for days. I was trying to think of a balmoral with a very odd band!)

 

Roger M

[gordon92]

6 hours ago, rolt968 said:

 

As with all these kinds of things, there certainly were many exceptions - particularly in less "formal" circumstances in France. Having said that, this looks like a photo taken on an occasion, if not a formal photo. On balance, I would have expected to see the collar badges and "T" for a TF commission as early as 1915ish.

 

(Incidentally the glasses/ goggles had me baffled for days. I was trying to think of a balmoral with a very odd band!)

 

Roger M

 

I know that in The Black Watch only TF officers wore collar badges in Service dress.  It is certainly possible that the Cameron Highlanders followed the same convention.

 

Mike

[Ron Abbott]

Although the sporran badge and cantle cannot be seen, the pattern/colour of the sporran is typical Cameron Highlanders. 

 

(definitely not a piper of the Lovat Scouts !!)

[gordon92]

7 hours ago, Ron Abbott said:

Although the sporran badge and cantle cannot be seen, the pattern/colour of the sporran is typical Cameron Highlanders. 

 

(definitely not a piper of the Lovat Scouts !!)

 

Further, as Lovat Scouts pipers wore Hunting Fraser kilts, the white stripes would have been visible in the image.

[Guest]

On 08/08/2016 at 18:25, gordon92 said:

 

I know that in The Black Watch only TF officers wore collar badges in Service dress.  It is certainly possible that the Cameron Highlanders followed the same convention.

 

Mike

I have photos of officers in the 5th Seaforths wearing 'T' collar badges. I also have photos of a Seaforth uniform (either 4th or 6th battalion) with stag's head collar badges.

[FROGSMILE]

It seems odd that the OP, Lyndale, never responded to the posts in reply.  Did anyone try sending a PM?

 

P.S.  I agree that he’s Cameron’s and wearing a drab bonnet.  Regular battalion officers of several highland regiments often didn’t wear collar badges.

Edited 2 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

Quite a mystery this one. 

 

I'd say the subject is not wearing the uniform of a Lovat Scout.  I'm suspicious about the straight cut white sporran tassels which are curiously un-Cameron but the record shows different. 

 

Does the absence of any apparent rank badges on cuffs (or epaulettes) propel us into the world of a UOTC as I see a single strand of braid on the cuffs but no accompanying pip?

 

Finally, regarding the curious goggles.  Could we be looking at nothing more than a continuation of the photographic "ectoplasm" running across the image top right to lower left?    

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

Quite a mystery this one. 

 

I'd say the subject is not wearing the uniform of a Lovat Scout.  I'm suspicious about the straight cut white sporran tassels which are curiously un-Cameron but the record shows different. 

 

Does the absence of any apparent rank badges on cuffs (or epaulettes) propel us into the world of a UOTC as I see a single strand of braid on the cuffs but no accompanying pip?

 

Finally, regarding the curious goggles.  Could we be looking at nothing more than a continuation of the photographic "ectoplasm" running across the image top right to lower left?    

 

 

 

You could well be right about the ectoplasm, it certainly seems optically to be a continuation.

 

As regards the cuff I think it just reflects the movement of the rank stars to the shoulder strap.  The gauntlet type cuff was usually left with its line of tracing tape intact in such circumstances.

Edited 2 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

I am inclined to think that there is some kind of design on the "sidewall" of the Balmoral rather than a photographic idiosyncrasy; the pattern is definitively bounded by the crown and headband of the bonnet.  The subject appears to be wearing no hose flashes of any kind.  The photographic rendering of the kilt does look like 79th tartan and not a Government tartan.  A mystery, and the UOTC suggestion seems plausible.

[TullochArd]

I'm not a poetry fan but check this account out.................

 

Photograph of David McDonald | First World War Poetry Digital Archive (ox.ac.uk)

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

I'm not a poetry fan but check this account out.................

 

Photograph of David McDonald | First World War Poetry Digital Archive (ox.ac.uk)

 

 

It is absolutely plain to me when enlarging the head on the photo at that link that what appears to be patterning on the side band of the bonnet is simple scarring on the face of the photo.  Not only does it not look like dicing, but the Cameron Highlanders were in any case a regiment that was especially, and consistently averse to any chequering on their undress headdress.  Thank you for posting the link.

Edited 3 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It is absolutely plain to me when enlarging the head on the photo at that link that what appears to be patterning on the side band of the bonnet is simple scarring on the face of the photo.  Not only does it not look like dicing, but the Cameron Highlanders were in any case a regiment that was especially, and consistently averse to any chequering on their undress headdress.  Thank you for posting the link.

 

I am now inclined to agree with you.  Under magnification I can now see that the 3rd object on the wearer's eight extends from the sidewall of the bonnet in  straight line onto the crown, and the objects on the wearer's left project onto the badge backing.  This signifies to me that the objects were not part of the original image. Perhaps, vestiges of damage from water droplets?

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

 

I am now inclined to agree with you.  Under magnification I can now see that the 3rd object on the wearer's eight extends from the sidewall of the bonnet in  straight line onto the crown, and the objects on the wearer's left project onto the badge backing.  This signifies to me that the objects were not part of the original image. Perhaps, vestiges of damage from water droplets?

 

Definitely damage of some kind, but I don't know if water would have that effect, they look a bit like grazes, or scratches on the surface of the photo rather than its negative.  The tell tale aspect I thought was how the marks extend to the right, beyond the side wall of the bonnet.  It was certainly very deceiving in effect.

Edited 3 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[George Macdonald]

Good evening everyone 

could someone please am

Answer this question please 

when did the Lovat scouts in ww2 wear the rectangular black with white writing 

shoulder patch 

thankyou

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, George Macdonald said:

Good evening everyone 

could someone please am

Answer this question please 

when did the Lovat scouts in ww2 wear the rectangular black with white writing 

shoulder patch 

thankyou

 

Please can we stay on topic this is the Great War Forum

any response by PM

 

Thanks

[George Macdonald]

My apologies