Possible Non Comm?

[pat geary]

I’ve come across the Register of Soldiers Effects and War Medal entries for a Rifleman James Sterling who is commemorated on our local war memorial in Lisburn.

He served in 1 Royal Irish Rifles (9054) and died on the 5 October 1914 in Lady Strangford Hospital, Port Said presumably while the battalion were en route to the UK from Aden. I’ve got him on the 1901 Ireland census and the 1911 England census (the latter in 1RIR), but there is no sign of him in SDGW or Ireland’s Memorial record. More to the point, despite trying as many variations as I can think of there seems to be no sign of him on the CWGC site.

Would anyone care to have a look at this on CWGC before I get in touch with them about a possible non comm?

Pat

[keithmroberts]

Moved to possible non comms

 

 

Keith

[John_Hartley]

Pat

 

I agree - can't find him on CWGC.

 

I presume your submission to CWGC will be based solely on Soldiers Effects?  Be aware that this is, by no means, a definitive document. The In From the Cold Project, working with CWGC, has already concluded that there are entries there in error and men were not dead. I would include anything else you can find - a photo of the inscription on the war memorial, a newspaer obituary, etc.

 

By the by, IFCP has an ongoing project cross-checking all entries in Soldiers Effects with the CWGC database.

 

John

[pat geary]

Hi John, much obliged for that.

 

Unfortunately I don't have an obituary but apart from him, (or at least a "J. Sterling" who I have failed to trace anywhere else) being on the town memorial, he is listed on a Roll of Honour for Lisburn Roman Catholic Church which I hope will help.

 

Pat

[ss002d6252]

I can't see him anywhere either but someone in the effects branch was happy enough with what they had been given to show that he was dead to pay out the gratuity. From a gratuity point of view the amount of £5 is spot on for a regular soldier who died in 1914.

He is on the Medal Roll with a BWM which was returned after issuing but there's no death details noted on the roll.

Craig

[Hywyn]

He should be in the Overseas Index? My disc is playing up to check .

[ss002d6252]

4 minutes ago, Hywyn said:

He should be in the Overseas Index? My disc is playing up to check .

 

I can't see him on the FMP version - just been looking.

Craig

[Hywyn]

I have FMP Craig. Not all that hot at navigating it. What's the dataset called and is it in Military?

[Hywyn]

Found it now (the FMP dataset that is)

[pat geary]

Many thanks one and all, will get in touch with the CWGC.

 

Pat

[John_Hartley]

I'm uncertain but don't think the overseas index would cover deaths of men not yet in a theatre of war.

[NigelS]

7 hours ago, Hywyn said:

He should be in the Overseas Index?

 

4 hours ago, John_Hartley said:

I'm uncertain but don't think the overseas index would cover deaths of men not yet in a theatre of war.

If you mean specifically the 'GRO WAR DEATHS ARMY OTHER RANKS (1914 to 1921)',  of  the deaths recorded for  James Sterling there are none serving with The Royal Irish Rifles , only one for 1914 (L/Cpl 1358, S. Lancs), one for 1915 (Pte 9486, DLI) & one for 1916 (Pte 19/1548, DLI).

 

I've always believed, possibly wrongly, that this Index (together with the equivalent for officers) covered deaths of army personnel serving outside of the UK (with the possible exception of those lost at sea?) regardless of whether they'd entered a theatre of war or not, but, having never seen a detailed description of the basis for inclusion (or exclusion) for these indices, I'd be delighted to  be corrected! 

 

NigelS

 

[pat geary]

Thanks John and Nigel.

 

Had a look at the battalion War Diary, more in hope than expectation. It didn't help much other than implying that they would have passed through Egypt on the way home.

 

Will be curious to see what the CWGC have to say.

 

Pat

[John_Hartley]

Pat

 

If possible, suggest you checking the local newspaper for any "In Memorium" notices on the anniversries of his death for a few years. It all helps to build the case - CWGC and the NAM  will not generally investigate themselves, so rely on whatever is sent to them as the submission.

 

John

[John_Hartley]

Mel - ta for the link. I've now checked overseas naval deaths as was done for the other case - and he ain't there. Checked for Sterling and Stirling, just in case

 

John

[ss002d6252]

It seems to me that for some reason some of the earlier military deaths never made their way to the GRO for inclusion in their overseas death indexes - it's not the first time that an entry could not be found.

Craig

[Phil Wood]

On 8/4/2016 at 17:43, John_Hartley said:

Pat

 

I agree - can't find him on CWGC.

 

I presume your submission to CWGC will be based solely on Soldiers Effects?  Be aware that this is, by no means, a definitive document. The In From the Cold Project, working with CWGC, has already concluded that there are entries there in error and men were not dead. I would include anything else you can find - a photo of the inscription on the war memorial, a newspaer obituary, etc.

 

By the by, IFCP has an ongoing project cross-checking all entries in Soldiers Effects with the CWGC database.

 

John

Hi John,

 

I was interested to read the above - doubly so a few hours later when I cam across severl men on the Soldiers' Effect Register who are not on the CWGC (based on a simple surname search).

 

I just happened that I was on one of my occasional attempts to identify on of the names on the Nebwury memorial that has defeated me to date - G DRY.

 

Comparing searches for DRYs on the CWGC and Soldiers' Effect Registers (SER) comes up with a ludicrouly high percentage of anomalies!

 

CWCG - 17 DRYs. 12 of these are in the SER, 4 served with the RN and AIF (ie would not appear in the SER). 1 does not appear in the SER.

 

SER - 18 DRYs - 12 are in the CWGC date, one is a duplicate of one of these 12. 5 do not appear in the CWGC roll.

 

5 out of 17 are missing!  1 died in 1902 (I hadn't realised the SER covered that era), and another 3 died post discharge their discharge and death both being in the WW1 years. The final one went missing on 26 Aug 1914 and was presumed dead.

 

On the positive side I may have identifed G DRY.:

G Dry, 14533, Hampshire Regiment died (SER) 5 Mar 1916.  

FreeBMD had George Dry aged 50 died Newbury (Reg Dist) March Qtr 1916.

George Dry born 1866 enlisted in the Hampshire Regt in Oct 1884, served until 1889 (discharge following gsw to elbow).

1911 living in Basingstoke with wife, Edith & 6 children.

SER names wife as Edith and death date 5 Mar 1916 - after discharge (discharged Dec 1915, enlisted about Nov 1914 according to his gratuity. At least two of his many children settled in Newbury, which would explain his name on the memorial.

He is not on the CWGC roll - but it may be difficult (impossible?) to prove his death was due to his service as I can find no service or pension records relating to his WW1 service.

 

[John_Hartley]

Phil

 

The death certificate itself may be the required evidence. There may be a cause of death where it is clear (or arguably clear) that it must be war related. For example, clear mention of a war wound related death would be pretty clear cut. A death from, say, malaria would also be a generally good bet as it is pretty much certain that it contracted whilst on service. Whereas, say, TB is going to be a much more difficult one to try and argue.

 

John

[ss002d6252]

11 hours ago, Phil Wood said:

5 out of 17 are missing!  1 died in 1902 (I hadn't realised the SER covered that era), and another 3 died post discharge their discharge and death both being in the WW1 years. The final one went missing on 26 Aug 1914 and was presumed dead.

 

 

The 3 who died post discharge are included in the effects register because they died before the war gratuity was paid out, the effects branch were responsible for paying these monies (regardless of how they'd died).

The one from Aug 14 is the odd one - the army had obviously accepted his death at the time. Does it show the war gratuity being paid out as well ?. If so the army clearly regarded him as dead as late as 1919 (so unlikely to be have been an unreported POW). Early deaths missing from the CWGC aren't overly unusual though.

Craig

[Phil Wood]

John,

 

I will get the death certificate, but I don't hold out much hope - the chap never left England and probably died of something mundane - though his family evidently put it down to his war service when they put him forward for inclusion on the war memorial. That said there is little or no evidence that the War Memorial Committee did any filtering of names for elligibility.

 

Phil

[Phil Wood]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

The 3 who died post discharge are included in the effects register because they died before the war gratuity was paid out, the effects branch were responsible for paying these monies (regardless of how they'd died). . . .

 

These could be a rich vein of men who should be on the CWGC - but their cases will often be hard to prove if their service records haven't survived.

 

[ss002d6252]

17 minutes ago, Phil Wood said:

 

These could be a rich vein of men who should be on the CWGC - but their cases will often be hard to prove if their service records haven't survived.

 

I agree - it's a ready list of soldiers who had been discharged and died but as you say very difficult to prove how or why they'd died.

 

Craig

[pat geary]

Have sent all the stuff I have on Rfm. Sterling off to the CWGC who have replied with a list of suggested documentation; birth and death certificates are essential apparently. I've got the local museum involved in this and they have put in a reguest to the GRO for those.

The other things the CWGC suggested were a rubbing of his death (bronze) plaque, memorial card

,

newspaper obituary, a letter from his Commanding Officer and service record information.

 

The service record looks like a lost cause but will keep rummaging!

 

Pat

[Phil Wood]

I have had a few cases accepted by the CWGC - none of which included a birth certificate!  Death certs were vital to prove cause of death and, in two cases that the death occured in a military hospital (which helped one case in particular where there were no service records available). 

 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

16 hours ago, pat geary said:

Have sent all the stuff I have on Rfm. Sterling off to the CWGC who have replied with a list of suggested documentation; birth and death certificates are essential apparently. I've got the local museum involved in this and they have put in a reguest to the GRO for those.

The other things the CWGC suggested were a rubbing of his death (bronze) plaque, memorial card

,

newspaper obituary, a letter from his Commanding Officer and service record information.

 

The service record looks like a lost cause but will keep rummaging!

 

Pat

I had a man - killed in the Scarborough bombardment - who IFCP put forward for me. It took ages to find the service records then one day they were just there. It seems Ancestry had been re-indexing some records or had tweaked their search facility.

Craig