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Roaminoz

NZ - Archway - Casualty Form - help

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Roaminoz

Hello

I have just discovered my grandfather's WW1 record on Archway (NZ)  https://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=18051987&digital=yes     

This is the very first time I have ever seen such a record and I am so totally confused by it.   The report (7 pages) all seems to be in code or abbreviation. It appears that grandfather, Frank George Ingpen 24/1936 was with the N.Z. Rifle Brigade and spent more time in 'hospitals' than at war.   I was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction to try to decipher his Military History records.

Judith Lattaway

Australia.

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

Hi Judith,

 

Yes records can seem a bit daunting when you first get to see them, but you are indeed fortunate, Australian and New Zealand  records are of much better quality than British ones. And, only about 30% of British records have survived.

I wish my grandfather's records were as clear!

 

 

Take your time to read them, and to get used to the different styles of handwriting on the forms.

Then begin to transcribe them.

Some of the information will be meaningless code numbers that are irrelevant.

Take for example Image 7

The right hand column entitled 'Remarks.....' contains references to army form numbers. These aren't  of much use.

They do however contain some medical entries like Gastritis, GSW (=gunshot wound) face & knee , influenza and measles.

Transcribe what you can, and if you get stuck, come back, I'm sure someone can help.

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TEW

It is a busy set of records, especially images 7,8,16 & 17. As Dai says there are several entries relating to sickness, mainly influenza but also scabies, German measles, PUO (sickness/fever). But there is also the gunshot wound and Gassed on sheet 3.

 

Interesting that 'Awarded Mlitary Medal' is crossed out, something that needs checking.

 

There is another member who is very good with NZ records but they may not spot the NZ connection. Not sure if you can alter the main title?

 

I can look again tomorrow and work out most of it but can't do so on iPad.

TEW

 

 

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Roaminoz
17 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Hi Judith,

 

Yes records can seem a bit daunting when you first get to see them, but you are indeed fortunate, Australian and New Zealand  records are of much better quality than British ones. And, only about 30% of British records have survived.

I wish my grandfather's records were as clear!

 

 

Take your time to read them, and to get used to the different styles of handwriting on the forms.

Then begin to transcribe them.

Some of the information will be meaningless code numbers that are irrelevant.

Take for example Image 7

The right hand column entitled 'Remarks.....' contains references to army form numbers. These aren't  of much use.

They do however contain some medical entries like Gastritis, GSW (=gunshot wound) face & knee , influenza and measles.

Transcribe what you can, and if you get stuck, come back, I'm sure someone can help.

 

 

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TEW

Judith,

 

Not sure if this will work as it's your first post. In your original post there should be an option to EDIT written in blue. Click on that and if you get the option to alter the main title do so, just add Archway or NZ to the beginning.

TEW

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Roaminoz

Thank you for your advice everyone.   I will take my time at writing down everything ... then check an abbreviations website for medical etc... and see how I go.

I also noted a line about awarded a medal but seemed to be crossed out so I thought perhaps this was written mistakenly ... should have been someone else.

Jude

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TEW

I've downloaded some of the files and will make a stab at some of the entries.

 

In the mean time there are a few other sources you may be interested in.

 

Trove have a list of NZ casualties arranged in 14 books which can be searched online. Website seems a little 'clonky' but find each book's online version and search for Ingpen and/or his number.

 

There is also an Official history of the NZ Rifle Brigade (Ingpen in D Company 2nd NZRB). Once his locations have been established you'll be able to read up on his actions.

 

The above lists the Honours and Awards given to troops of the NZRB and for a moment I thought he had a listing for the Military Medal but it's actually for Rifleman N L Ingpen. Perhaps the annotation was added to your Grandfather's record by mistake and then crossed out. Could N L Ingpen be another relation?

 

I can't seem to find the official unit diaries for 2nd NZRB, perhaps they don't exist, they should be listed HERE.

 

TEW

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Roaminoz

Many many thanks TEW.    I have spent most of yesterday writing out all I can of the Casualty form.  It's not easy is it for a beginer.   I can't understand why the two dates   eg:    5.12.18 - Admitted 56 General Hospital Etaples 23.11.18 PUO.    I would be so thankful for your 'stab' at the entries.      And a question, from these dates are you able to tell if Frank was at the Battle of Somme ?       I've not seen the website Official history of the NZ Rifle Brigade)  will get onto it now.    Will also check out Trove (Aust. newspapers online).   although I don't think I will find him here as Frank was from New Zealand.   I did however find a reference to him in Papers Past (NZ) that he had been wounded.    Again, can't thank you enough for your help.   I will spent today reading the N.Z. R.B. history.

Jude

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

Hi Judith,

I think the two date columns are explained as follows:

 

The left hand date column ('Date of Casualty') is the actual date on which the event described  did occur.

The right hand date column ('Authority and date of same') is the date that the information was entered.

 

Another example of NZ records being better than UK records.

On British forms, the date of the event is well to the right, and the date that the entry was made is prominent on the left.

These NZ entries seem to have been made only a few days after the event.

You often see British entries being made several weeks after an event.

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Roaminoz

TEW ..   the reference to N.L. Ingpen is Frank George Ingpen's brother,  Norman Lockyer.  Three brothers went to war.  I've not searched for their War Service Records to date.   One at a time I feel will be a ton of work for a beginner like me.

 

Re the dates .. thanks for the explanation - as I found them confusing.

Jude

 

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The Inspector

Hi Jude

The three brothers, you probably already know they all survived the war

Frank George 1894-1943, Ernest Edward 1892-1938 and Norman Lockyer 28.10.1894-13.10.1959

Regards Barry

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Roaminoz

Thank you Barry.   I've just discovered there were four brother ..  Spencer Edward Ingpen.  and I am lucky enough to have a 'studio' photograph of all four boys. But my main concentration is with grandfather, Frank George.    I am reading through the book online of the Official History of the NZRB.   I've never read about the war before.   I've seen Mash, Allo Allo, Dad's Army .. and I have always attended most Anzac Parades.   But reading the above book brings an entirely different aspect to those three television shows.   I can see I will be in tears before I get much further into the book.

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The Inspector

Hi Jude

Spencer Edward Pte.69702.survived......if you want any help  searching send me a PM or post on here for the experts.

Regards Barry Frank George Ingpen

 

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Roaminoz

Wow.  I'm over the moon.   I do not have a photo of Granddad's final resting place.  Can't thank you enough.

Jude

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jacksdad

Hi Jude

Your bloke is in D Company of the 2nd Battalion of the 3rd (Rifles) Brigade.

I will refer to his battalion as 2/Rifles from here.

The 3rd NZ (R) Brigade (3/NZRB) had four battalions (numbered 1-4) and each Battalion was made up of 4 companies (titled A-D).

 

It would be wrong to think that he spent most of the war in hospital.

 

In short his military files shows he started his time (in the field) in action at Armentieres / Houpline sector

He goes to Hospital - 3rd Field Ambulance - that was the NZ medical unit for the 3/NZRB. they were stationed at this time in the buildings in Armentieres on Rue Denis Papin directly behind the big church.

he re-joins the unit in July and would have gone from Armentieres and moved south to the Somme, he would have been at Flers on the Somme in the Battle of Flers-Courcelette.

The NZEF then move to north to the area just south of Armentieres, referred to as either Fleurbaix or Bois-Grenier

2/Rifles took over the trenches on the 13th October from the AIF in the left side of what was called the Boutillerie sector where he is wounded on the 16 October.

I will post a map of this sector.

 

Hospital would have either been the MDS at Sailly-sur-la Lys and then Estaires

 

he re-joins the unit on 3 Nov 16 - still in Fleurbaix.

they then moved north into Belgium and Ploegsteert Wood and then the Battle of Messines.

he goes on leave to probably Paris or London July 1917. returns 14th July.

 

He is back in the trenches around Ploegsteert Wood.

Off to hospital in August 1917 just before the division moves north to (what is now remembered as) Passchendaele.

re-joins the unit training for Passchendaele.

off to hospital again  - this time 2nd Canadian Hospital ( you will find a lot on this on google)

 

misses Passchendaele and re-joins the unit back in France on the Somme again.

This is what NZ history books oft refer to as 2nd Somme and during the aftermath of the  period of the German Spring offensive.

 

He joins the unit this time as a signaller or part of the communication units, at the trenches running from Auchonvillers north to basically Sucrerie Military Cemetery.

 

Then they move north to Hebuterne and then they start an advance that ends in the storming and capture of Le Quesnoy in early November 1918

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jacksdad

His MF has Military Medal crossed out, but I imagine this is an  error getting Norman Lockyer Ingpen mixed up with your grandfather as his Military file has the same entry added, and he was awarded the MM for action on the Somme on the 15/16 Sept 1916 as a signaller

 

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TEW

Not sure how you’ve been getting on with the sheets. I see you’ve had more help! This is my rendition of Image 8 from Archway, you could use it to have a go at Image 7? I’ve numbered the columns to make referencing easier, and note that the 2 date columns are opposite to the other sheet you quoted in post#8, just to confuse things!

Columns 1 & 2 relate to the date and origin of a report made out regarding an event, The event date is given in column 5.

Mainly, the info you need is from Columns 3 & 5 but column 6 occasionally has some useful info. The other refs in column 6 are to other army forms eg B213. Sometimes it helps to cross-ref to other sheets so for example the MEASLES comes from Image 3.

PUO is a generic kind of sickness/fever but as 3 Canadian General Hospital diagnosed influenza perhaps he didn’t have PUO.

Any other queries, feel free to post.

TEW

ul.jpg

 

Col 5                 Col 3                                                                       Col 4 or 6

18/8/17          To Hospital Sick

18/8/17          Admitted No. 3 NZ Field Ambulance                             Scabies

18/8/17          Admitted No. 50 Casualty Clearing Station                  Scabies

28/8/17          Rejoined Unit

25/9/17          To Hospital Sick

25/9/17          Admitted No. 3 NZ Field Ambulance                            PUO

25/9/17          Admitted No. 2 Casualty Clearing Station                   PUO

30/9/17          Admitted No. 3 Canadian General Hospital               Influenza

4/10/17          Admitted No. 3 Convalescent Depot

17/10/17       Attached ???? [NZ ?B] Depot (Base Depot)              Etaples

15/11/17       Admitted No. 46 Stationary Hospital                           Etaples (Measles)

5/12/17          Admitted No. 6 Convalescent Depot                         Etaples

8/1/18            Marched in. NZ GBD                                                 Etaples

19/5/18          Out to Division                                                          Etaples

20/5/18          Rejoined unit, posted in/on signals

10/9/18          To UK on Leave

30/9/18          Rejoined Battalion

7/2/19            Embarked for NZ SS Ajana                                        Liverpool

 

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Roaminoz

Thank you ever so much 'Jacksdad".   You have helped immensely in showing his movements.

Canadian Hospital - I was reading this as Convalescence Hospital on his casualty form - I will google as you suggest.

 

 have found quite a few maps which refer to the various battles in northern France during WW1 and I will now try and relate Frank's movements with those maps.

Again, many thanks.

Jude

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Roaminoz

TEW - many thanks for translating the above image for me.   I was almost right in my deciphering. except I didn't pick up Canadian Hospital.   Plus I missed a NZ Filed Ambulance.    So your expertise at hand writing has impressed me.

Jude

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Roaminoz

Question 1...    what does it mean to   'be gassed'   ?  from which I presumed caused his chronic bronchitis and culminating in his discharge no longer physically fit.

 

Question 2 ... what does it mean   "Marched in" ?

 

Jude

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

Hi Judith,

Both terms mean what they say.

 

To be gassed.... to be attacked by the enemy by means of poison gas, usually from shells. There were different types of gas giving different effects. Yes it is possible that his chronic bronchitis could have been a result.

 

Marched in..... His company, battallion or whatever, marched in to a new area of administration, to a new camp maybe, to a new rest area, to a new corps or whatever.

It usually meant just that. Marching in, on foot. You could I suppose march in a whole battallion by lorry.

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TEW

I had a look through the casualty list books and he only shows on one list for the GSW Face & Knee event in Oct 1916. The list doesn't really add any info but it does show him on an official casualty list.

 

Casualty List HERE.

 

Not sure if you're aware but some of the Hospitals, Clearing Stations and Field Ambulances also have diaries. Very unlikely to mention him but you'd get a idea of where they were, how many they admitted that day etc.

 

I've never quite worked out why Archway have some WWI NZ diaries and AWM have more. The 3 Canadian General Hospital  should also have a free online diary.

 

TEW

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Roaminoz

Thank you TEW and Dai .....  I have almost finished reading the Official History of the NZRB which is online.  So thankful I was directed to this website.   I now think I have enough information to write Granddad's story.       However, I will also look up those War Diaries and check the Causality List. 

 

Jude

 

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jacksdad
On ‎4‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 22:11, TEW said:

I had a look through the casualty list books and he only shows on one list for the GSW Face & Knee event in Oct 1916. The list doesn't really add any info but it does show him on an official casualty list.

 

Casualty List HERE.

 

Not sure if you're aware but some of the Hospitals, Clearing Stations and Field Ambulances also have diaries. Very unlikely to mention him but you'd get a idea of where they were, how many they admitted that day etc.

 

I've never quite worked out why Archway have some WWI NZ diaries and AWM have more. The 3 Canadian General Hospital  should also have a free online diary.

 

TEW

Hi Tew

Do they have a casualty list like this for the British MG Corps.

My grandfather Donald Ambrose Shephard was with the 28th MG Corps and was shot through the shoulder but I do not know when or where.

Cheers Roger

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TEW

Roger,

 

There is the official WO casualty list which would include MGC. I've had a look and not seen a Donald or D or D. A. Shepard from the MGC in the list.

 

There are 2 reasons this might be;

His injury was not serious enough to end up on the list.

The injury was either between May-Aug 1917 or post April 1918.

Up to about May 1917 the lists were issued to the press and initially appeared in The Times. For some reason they stopped producing lists for ORs around May 1917. The WO then started an official publication which could be bought publicly from Aug 1917.

thegenealogist website has transcribed the WO lists, taking them either from The Times or from the official publication from Aug 1917. I'm not sure if it's a work in progress but they have only transcribed up to about May 1918. The rest of 1918 is available in book form in the British Library ( I think). Probably not an option for you!

 

Have you tried the diary for 28/MGC or doing a name/number search on Findmypast?

TEW

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