Steve A Posted 30 July , 2016 Share Posted 30 July , 2016 This is my Great grandfather, b.1889, in Bethnal Green, Middlesex. On his wedding certificate (March 1916 aged 18) his middle name is given as Joseph but I have found this to be wrong. His profession is given as a "Drummer"6th Middlesex, I've not been able to find any records? He married Rebecca Henrietta Ross in Gillingham, I'm assuming that's where he was stationed as neither of them come from there. I was told that he joined up as a boy solider in "the band" because you could join much younger ?(family problems) I was also told that his brother Robert b 1897 also ran away to the army and William witnessed his death in battle but this could just be a family myth (I have Robert on the 1901 census but nothing else after that?). Anything you can find out would be brilliant. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langdon Posted 30 July , 2016 Share Posted 30 July , 2016 Hi Steve, Should the birth date be 1898 to tally with the wedding certificate? And what are Robert's parents' names in the 1901 census? There are a lot of William and Robert Elliott's out there! Here's the link with Gillingham I think - see 6th Battalion. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve A Posted 30 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 30 July , 2016 1 hour ago, Langdon said: Hi Steve, Should the birth date be 1898 to tally with the wedding certificate? And what are Robert's parents' names in the 1901 census? There are a lot of William and Robert Elliott's out there! Here's the link with Gillingham I think - see 6th Battalion. Mike Sorry Mike you are correct Williams age when married was given as 28. William and Roberts parents are William Joseph Abbott & Louisa (Green) they lived in Quaker Street. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 30 July , 2016 Share Posted 30 July , 2016 One snagette is that there is NO Robert Abbot registered on the CWGC site and the only WW1 R Abbot was a Richard and he died in the UK, so not likely to have been witnessed by William "in Battle" (unless it was the East Sussex town!). If William was born in 1898 then he'd still only have been 18 in 1916 when he married (using his father's name - why?). There are 8 deaths of men showing their Next of Kin address as Quaker Street, Spitalfields, none have Robert or Abbot in their Names I'll have to leave it to others to try and assist further, as nothing ties in so far with your information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve A Posted 30 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 30 July , 2016 3 minutes ago, KevinBattle said: One snagette is that there is NO Robert Abbot registered on the CWGC site and the only WW1 R Abbot was a Richard and he died in the UK, so not likely to have been witnessed by William "in Battle" (unless it was the East Sussex town!). If William was born in 1898 then he'd still only have been 18 in 1916 when he married (using his father's name - why?). There are 8 deaths of men showing their Next of Kin address as Quaker Street, Spitalfields, none have Robert or Abbot in their Names I'll have to leave it to others to try and assist further, as nothing ties in so far with your information William Frederick Abbott was born 1889 so his age would be correct at around 28, he did survive the war my problem is finding records that show what he did during it (apart from putting my great nan in the family way) Unfortunately Robert (and the story of his demise) has been a bit of a diversion and I share your frustrations (that's why I'm posting, I tried and failed) Thanks for your time Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langdon Posted 30 July , 2016 Share Posted 30 July , 2016 I've tried locating the 1901 family (Father William Joseph, Mother Louisa, daughters Catherine & Elizabeth and sons William and Robert) in the 1911 census. It's possible that the family broke up (father died?) - there is a Louisa and Elizabeth of corrrect ages living in Bethnel Green with Louisa, aged 56, having had 10 children of whom 2 have died. This Louisa, born in Stepney could be William's mother. In the 1901 census she was born in St George's in the East which became part of Stepney. As for your great grandfather there is a 22 year old William (no Frederick) Abbott, born in Bethnel Green, in India in the 1911 census with the 3rd Battalion of the Middlesex regiment - but he is a soldier not a drummer.. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 30 July , 2016 Share Posted 30 July , 2016 Have you managed to discount this man: William Joseph Abbott No. L/11212 Enlisted 5 July 1906 To France & Flanders 18 January 1915 First served with 3rd Battalion Middlesex Regiment in France & Flanders Later served with 2nd Battalion Middlesex Regiment in France & Flanders Discharged 19 March 1918 due to Wounds Serving with 21st Battalion Middlesex Regiment at time of discharge Issued Silver War Badge No. 357385 The dates and (registered) name would seem to be about right. 6th Battalion (with whom your William Abbott was serving with in 1916) were a Reserve battalion in the UK (at Gillingham) so would not be shown on a medal roll. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langdon Posted 30 July , 2016 Share Posted 30 July , 2016 Good stuff Steve, boy drummer with 'family problems' drops his sticks at some point and is in India with the 3rd.. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve A Posted 31 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 31 July , 2016 The wedding certificate was where I started my research, his name given as William Joseph (same as his father) I then got his death certificate after looking for a William Joseph at the cemetery where I was told he was buried and found he was buried as William Frederick so I though his wedding certificate was filled out incorrectly, which has added to the confusion. Thanks for your time guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 31 July , 2016 Share Posted 31 July , 2016 FindMyPast seems to have a set of service records for the William Joseph Abbott enlisting in 1906. I do not have access. This may be a Militia service record (men often served a few months in the Militia before enlisting into the Regulars and committing to full-time soldiering) or may even be a full record. Either way this may confirm whether or not it is the right man or not (for example, if the next of kin is correct and the Militia discharge and Regulars enlistment dates line up). Name: Abbott, William Joseph, born 1888, year of document 1906, collection: British Army Service Records, place of birth: Bethnal Green, London, Middlesex, England http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/united-kingdom-records-in-military-armed-forces-and-conflict?firstname=william&firstname_variants=true&lastname=abbott&yearofbirth=1889&yearofbirth_offset=1&keywords=bethnal Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve A Posted 31 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 31 July , 2016 I've been trying the link but the site in down, how frustrating is that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve A Posted 1 August , 2016 Author Share Posted 1 August , 2016 Hi Steve That link proved to be the correct person ! The date of the records is 1906, the address is correct (or very close to the one given on the 1901 census)his parents names and even Robert is mentioned. Attestation service number 4696 Attestation corps 5th Bn Middlesex Regt It's not really his service record as nothing else is written more proof of enrolment . Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 1 August , 2016 Share Posted 1 August , 2016 That sort of record is quite usual. What is happening is that he is enlisting into one of the Militia battalions (5th and 6th Battalions - in 1908 these would become Special Reserve battalions). He is signing up for 6 years of Militia service - an initial recruits training period followed by part-time training at Mill Hill Depot and a summer training camp each year. Many of these Militia recruits were then signed up for the Regular army for 12 years full time service. These papers were usually just four pages, with many recruits only serving a month or less before taking the plunge and going full-time. Most of these records often just show enlistment and discharge as they move on. The discharge date is probably within a few days of his enlistment into the Regular Army - his silver war badge roll entry shows 5-7-1906. At the point of enlisting into the Regulars he would have been given the L/11212 number. Judging by the "date of birth" of 1888 and the 1906 enlistment age it looks like he gave his age as 18? He would actually have been about 16 and a half years old then, so it appears he was adding a little bit on to his age to get in as a full-age soldier of 18? You can probably tell more from the actual record. Here is my rough guess-timate of his career. The war-time dates are really just guesses to fit the time-line. • Joined the 5th (Militia) Battalion of the Middlesex Regiment in 1906, age "18" (actually 16 years & a few months) • Allotted number 4696 in the 5th (Militia) Battalion of the Middlesex Regiment • Discharged from the Militia to enable re-enlistment into the Regular Army in July 1906 • Enlisted into the Middlesex Regiment (Regular Forces), 5-7-1906, age "18" (actually 16 years & 10 months) • Allotted number L/11212 from the Middlesex Regiment (Regular Forces) sequence • Age increased by 1 year or more (“born 1888” per 1906 Militia Attestation) • Posted to Middlesex Regiment Depot at Mill Hill for Basic Training, 5-7-1906 • Assuming age given as 18 then signed on 7/5 terms from July 1906 (i.e. to Reserve after 7 years in July 1913, and full discharge after 12 years in July 1918) • 4th Battalion, Londonderry – posted to active battalion, circa November 1906 • Alternative: 2nd Battalion, Portsmouth • 4th (or 2nd) Battalion, UK – reached actual age 18, September 1907 • 3rd Battalion, Singapore Autumn 1908 (Trooping Season Sep 1908 - Mar 1909) • 3rd Battalion, to India 19-12-1910 • 3rd Battalion, India 2-4-1911 (Census) • 3rd Battalion, India July 1913 – 7 year active service reached (extended for 1 year) • 3rd Battalion, India July 1914 – 8 year active service reached • 3rd Battalion, India 4-8-1914 (Declaration of War) • 3rd Battalion, India 4-8-1914 (Reserve term suspended, 4 more years active service) • 3rd Battalion (28th Division), to France & Flanders, 18-1-1915 • 3rd Battalion (28th Division), 2nd Battle of Ypres, April 1915 • 3rd Battalion (28th Division), Battle of Loos, 25-9-1915 • 3rd Battalion, Wounded or Sick, Jan to Sep 1915 • 6th Battalion, Gillingham, married, early 1916 • 6th Battalion, Gillingham, drummer, early 1916 • Son William Henry born 24-12-1916 (Registered 1st Quarter of 1917). William Snr. assumed to be at home wounded or on leave in March 1916. • 2nd Battalion, to France & Flanders, 1916 • 2nd Battalion (8th Division), Somme, July 1916 • 2nd Battalion (8th Division), wounded or sick, 1916 • 21st Battalion (40th Division), Villers-Plouich, April/May 1917 • 21st Battalion, France & Flanders, wounded 1917 • Daughter Rebecca Ivy born 27-10-1918 (Registered 4th Quarter of 1918) William Snr. assumed to be at home wounded or on leave in January 1918 • 21st Battalion, discharged (under paragraph 392 xvi of King's Regulations) due to wounds19-3-1918 Please bear in mind this is just a "possible" timeline. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve A Posted 2 August , 2016 Author Share Posted 2 August , 2016 Thanks Steve, So I now know the William Joseph joined up 30/4/1906 and was still in the army 10 years later when he got married. What in your masterpiece of his army career can be verified ? Ive rejoined FMP & Ancestry and am in the process of looking, are there any other sites worth a visit? Many thanks Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 2 August , 2016 Share Posted 2 August , 2016 Date of Regular Army enlistment (5-7-1906), date of discharge (19-3-1918) and unit of discharge (21st Middlesex) are from the Silver War Badge rolls. http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=SilverWarBadgeMedals&gss=sfs28_ms_r_db&new=1&rank=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsln=abbott&gsln_x=1&_F00061C3=middlx&_F00061C3_x=1&MSAV=2&uidh=5k3 (His number on the index page is transcribed incorrectly) Date of landing in France of 18-1-1915 (the same day as the original contingent of the 3rd Battalion) is from his Medal Card: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=dFl1487&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=MedalRolls&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsln=Abbott&gsln_x=1&_F00061C3=Middlesex&_F00061C3_x=1&MSAV=2&uidh=5k3&pcat=39&fh=45&h=11003&recoff=11&ml_rpos=46 Units served with of 3rd and 2nd Battalions are from his Medal Roll pages: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=IWOServiceMedalAwardRolls&gss=sfs28_ms_r_db&new=1&rank=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsln=Abbott&gsln_x=1&_F8007A65=11212&_F8007A65_x=1&MSAV=2&uidh=5k3 The earlier part of his career comes from researching quite a few pre-war soldiers and getting to know the usual sequence of movements (Depot training for about 4 months, a couple of years with a UK based battalion before embarkation overseas for most or all of the balance of active service). The 1911 Census placing him in India with 3rd Battalion provides us with a fixed point as well. Please ask if you want to clarify any specific points. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 2 August , 2016 Share Posted 2 August , 2016 The Genealogist website has the official casualty lists (the earlier part of which appeared in national newspapers such as the Times - the Times Digital Archive can be searched through library websites). The Generalogist has a 14 day free trial but will sign you up automatically if you don't cancel - I don't know if the trial includes the Casualty Lists. I once subscribed but no longer do so, so cannot access those (I think the search may also be behind the paywall as well). FindMyPast will have the British Library Newspaper archive as well that could help pick him up in a casualty list. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve A Posted 2 August , 2016 Author Share Posted 2 August , 2016 Many thanks for all your help Steve It's just amazing how you found so much so quickly Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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