UK Army Register of Soldiers Effects - advice

[liliasodell]

Hello.

Can anyone help out translating an entry into the UK Army Register of Soldiers Effects - it's a document I'm new to?

I've just found the entry for - (my great-uncle) Arthur William Odell, Pte 22807, 8th Bn, Bedfordshire Regiment, died 25/9/16 in France.

Questions are -

In 'date and place of death' it looks to have on the first line - 'on on' (2nd line - 'since', then 25.9.16). Was that an error - should it just have been one 'on'? He was killed during an artillery barage, which explains the 'death presumed' (and really made me wince!).

Under account & date, is that 'Warley', and what is it - somewhere the soldier's pay went through?

It has 15s7d in both credits & charges columns, and also in the amount authorised column. I'm not sure what this was for (back pay?), or why it appears in the 'charges' column when it's obviously been paid out (you'd think the credits and charges would cancel each other out - and why would he be charged this anyway?).

Was the £3 'war gratuity' paid in 1919 the normal amount - how did they work this out? He would have joined up during October 1915 - if length of service was taken into consideration.

I can't make out much of the 'to whom authorised' column. I presume 'mo' is short for 'mother', and there is reference to her name (Ada & Ada E), but, if anyone could possibly take a look for me, what are the rest of the abbreviations?

I'd put a copy on here, but can't seem to download it off the site it's on.

Thank you!

Lilias

[Derek Black]

Craig (ss002d6252) is the man to tell you all about these documents, send him a P.M. but i'm sure he'll be along at some point to explain it all for you.

[Chris_B]

Lilias,

 

While your waiting for "the experts":

 

 'on on' (2nd line - 'since', then 25.9.16) - That's "on or since ..." , i.e. there was no direct witness of your Great-Uncle's death.

 

This might help with the gratuity payments:

 

https://wargratuity.wordpress.com/2015/08/16/what-was-the-war-gratuity/

 

"mo sole leg." stands for "Mother sole Legatee".  In other words, your  Great-Uncle had named his mother in his solider's will as sole beneficiary.

 

Edited 30 July , 2016 by Chris_B
addition

[clk]

Hi Lilias,

 

1 hour ago, Chris_B said:

...your  Great-Uncle had named his mother in his solider's will...

 

...which survives and is available (£10) from here. It may well be only very basic though, and add little to what you already know. The size of the war gratuity payment indicates that he had 12 or less months eligible war service when he died.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit:

22800 Jiggles joined 25.10.1915

22804 Caves joined 25.10.1915

[liliasodell]

28 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi Lilias,

 

 

...which survives and is available (£10) from here. It may well be only very basic though, and add little to what you already know. The size of the war gratuity payment indicates that he had 12 or less months eligible war service when he died.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit:

22800 Jiggles joined 25.10.1915

22804 Caves joined 25.10.1915

Hi Chris

If you'll pardon me for returning to my youth - that is so cool! I've just ordered one. I've pretty much managed to put his war service together from estimated date of enlistment onwards, despite having no service/pension records, and using a certain amount of 'educated guesswork' (with a bit of help/advice). Fortunately I did know the Bn, otherwise it might have proved impossible. Info on the Beds. has been great on-line for longer than many regiments, thanks to enthusiastic individuals (though I actually started back in the 1990s, before there was all this on-line stuff - it involved a  lot of writing around).

Thanks again - very happy to find out about this.

Lilias

[liliasodell]

1 hour ago, Chris_B said:

Lilias,

 

While your waiting for "the experts":

 

 'on on' (2nd line - 'since', then 25.9.16) - That's "on or since ..." , i.e. there was no direct witness of your Great-Uncle's death.

 

This might help with the gratuity payments:

 

https://wargratuity.wordpress.com/2015/08/16/what-was-the-war-gratuity/

 

"mo sole leg." stands for "Mother sole Legatee".  In other words, your  Great-Uncle had named his mother in his solider's will as sole beneficiary.

 

Aha! Thank you - that makes sense.

And there probably wouldn't have been surviving witnesses who knew him - he was actually on carrying duties to the front-line trenches during the evening of the 25th, when caught up in the barage. Probably not much left - which I prefer trying not to think about too much. It's hard when you've known living people who were directly affected by the loss.

Lilias

[ss002d6252]

2 hours ago, Derek Black said:

Craig (ss002d6252) is the man to tell you all about these documents, send him a P.M. but i'm sure he'll be along at some point to explain it all for you.

 

I'm back from holiday on Tuesday so if an answer is not around by then I can have a look.

 

Craig

[liliasodell]

17 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

 

I'm back from holiday on Tuesday so if an answer is not around by then I can have a look.

 

Craig

Thank you! Enjoy the rest of your hols.

Lilias,

[ss002d6252]

 

Quote

Was the £3 'war gratuity' paid in 1919 the normal amount - how did they work this out? He would have joined up during October 1915 - if length of service was taken into consideration.

The full amount for a private was £5 however the war gratuity was only introduced at the beginning of 1919.

Prior to 1919 a man got a 'service gratuity' - originally this was for regular soldiers but was extended to all. The service gratuity was paid on death (in this case £2) however when it got to 1919 they decided that war-time enlistments should get the war gratuity net of any service gratuity already paid - hence the £5 being reduced by £2. The minimum war gratuity tells us that he had 12 months or less qualifying service (the first period of up to 12 months was paid at a flat rate)

Quote

 

It has 15s7d in both credits & charges columns, and also in the amount authorised column. I'm not sure what this was for (back pay?), or why it appears in the 'charges' column when it's obviously been paid out (you'd think the credits and charges would cancel each other out - and why would he be charged this anyway?).

 

It's basically army accountancy - the 'effects records' was basically a account which was set up for the man. Any monies would be credited to the account and debited from his pay account. The 'charge' is the debit to the 'effects records' account when the monies were paid out.

Craig

[liliasodell]

22 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

 

The full amount for a private was £5 however the war gratuity was only introduced at the beginning of 1919.

Prior to 1919 a man got a 'service gratuity' - originally this was for regular soldiers but was extended to all. The service gratuity was paid on death (in this case £2) however when it got to 1919 they decided that war-time enlistments should get the war gratuity net of any service gratuity already paid - hence the £5 being reduced to £2. The minimum war gratuity tells us that he had 12 months or less qualifying service (the first period of up to 12 months was paid at a flat rate)

It's basically army accountancy - the 'effects records' was basically a account which was set up for the man. Any monies would be credited to the account and debited from his pay account. The 'charge' is the debit to the 'effects records' account when the monies were paid out.

Craig

Thank you! Much appreciated.

Lilias

[penstemon5]

Hello,

I have just seen this.

Has anyone replied about the Credits and Charges columns.?

I am also confused. What were the charges? and in any case the full amount seems to have been paid as it is also in the "authorised" column.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, penstemon5 said:

Hello,

I have just seen this.

Has anyone replied about the Credits and Charges columns.?

I am also confused. What were the charges? and in any case the full amount seems to have been paid as it is also in the "authorised" column.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Which particular man are you interested in ?

Craig

[penstemon5]

Hello and thank you for getting in touch.

I am writing biographies for all the men on our village war memorial. Quite a lot of them have records in the “ soldier’s personal effects section”

the 2 columns that confuse me are the “charges” and “credits” .

Were the charges taken off the amount due to the soldier? 

I am away on holiday at the moment, so can’t direct you to an exact soldier until I get back as I don’t have the details here.

[penstemon5]

Henry John Oldham Died 24.10.1918 Private 42268 with Royal Warwickshire Regiment.