Private T wilson 103162 MGC

[Lincspoacher]

Hello I am new to the forum an have come to the end of my ideas as to how I can find out more about my Great grandfather's service with the machine gun Corps?  I have seen from his Medal roll that he was discharged on the 25.4.1919 and from local press that he was 'at home on leave with a lung injury after several weeks in hospital in France and Britain' in November 1917 after being bayonetted by another british soldier who had panicked!  I have also found that he was at Clipstone with the '3rd battalion MGC, 14th depot camp' around June 1917? I haven't seen anything of his service records or have any idea if he was infact with the '3rd trainning battalion'  at Clipstone and which company he served with later? 

 

I do have some further stories that I hope that may be proven by the wisdom of some of the forum members?

 1. He joined up with a group of friends before he was required to go?

 2. He was present at one of the Somme battles?

 3. Sorry if this last one is a bad subject but he spoke of a well liked underage member of his unit being shot by an officer for cowardice during a 'chaotic' battle?

 

My thanks for any advice and guidance over my findings or where to look next? Lincspoacher

[captain barker]

t

 

Edited 25 July , 2016 by captain barker

[Lincspoacher]

t Captain Barker?

[kenf48]

His age always helps.

 

He would have been mobilised locally , probably in summer 1916.  He was most likely a conscript and would have been sent to a training reserve unit.  Harry Patch recalled all the young men in his village knew when they would be called up.  Mobilised to the local Depot together       they were split up and sent to different TR units.

 

1. He 'volunteered' for the MGC and  was posted to No 3  Bn MGC on or around the 5th May 1917.   Clipstone Camp was the training camp in the UK for the MGC.  Probably went to France September 1917. Difficult to trace his original Company in the absence of a service record.  They would go to the MGC Depot at Camiers and from there were posted to where they were needed.

 

2. Not in 1916, possibly in 1918.

 

3. Who knows? An old soldier's story, it seems very unlikely as reported. By 1917 most underage soldiers had been weeded out and sent to the Base Depot or back to the UK.

 

Ken

[Lincspoacher]

Hello Kenf48 thank you for your reply to my post! I have just been checking some references and based on his being a married 28 years old my Great grandfather would have been in call up group 34 so a mobilization of April/May 1916? As you mentioned it was common knowledge of when which groups were to be summoned so he may have chosen to join up early with some of his mates in another draft which would lend some support to the my 1st story that dispite argument against it he went before he was required to do so.

 

I have also been considering that did the Machine gun corps only accept volunteers then if he joined up as a Derby scheme man before he was conscripted then he had some choice of where he went after basic training?

 

I have been trying to understand the route he took after enlistment based on another man's service records I have found and I am interested to know if I could be on the right track: 

 

1.He would have done his basic training with his local unit the Lincolnshire regiment but how long was the usual?

2. How long was the Machine gun corps basic training at Clipstone?

 

My thanks for any advice,Lincspoacher

[kenf48]

In answer to your specific questions:-

 

1. Basic training for an infantry soldier post 1916 was twelve weeks.
2. Training in the MGC was about six weeks plus a couple of weeks at Camiers, however it was not a 'production line' and there was some flexibility, a lot depended on what was happening in France.

 

There are only two episodes in his service we can be certain of, that he was posted and renumbered to the MGC on the 8th May 1917, and that he was back in the UK, having been to France, in November.

 

The evidence for the latter is your newspaper cutting and for the former the service records of 103157  Hewes and 103170 Bower who bracket his number neatly, as well as your information placing him at Clipstone in June.  We can also be certain he did not serve overseas with any other unit (medal rolls).

 

My initial reaction was that 28 was a bit old for the MGC and you may well be right in that he attested under the Derby Scheme and then obtained deferments through the local tribunal.  He may well have attested 'with his mates' they were quite big local events but I doubt they were all mobilised at the same time.

 

Pte Bower was also 28 and his record shows mobilisation to the ASC (MT) at Grove Park on 20 February 1917.  Then to the TR to 18.4.1917.

and to the MGC as above, embarking for France on the 3rd August 1917.

 

I think it most likely Pte Wilson followed a similar route.  SDGW has Pte 103168 Baxter kia 2/12/1917 formerly M/296860 RASC. What was his occupation in the 1911 Census?

 

In my files somewhere I have the ACI which basically states two MGC Officers would tour home based units and select suitable personnel for the MGC. I'll see if I can find it this evening.

 

 

Ken

 

[Lincspoacher]

Hello my thanks to you again Kenf48 for your insightful reply! I was thinking of Ptes Baxter, Bower and Hewes when I wrote my last message based on their closeness of service number and that I found some record of them too for reference!  I found Pte Hewes to have a very detailed record including that he joined the 214th MG company so could be a close match to Pte Wilson  as you have suggested? 

 

The 1911 Census details that Pte Wilson was a Farm Labourer Horseman as well as doing heavy mannual work like railway construction and the common fenland task of digging or maintaining drains/waterways. I have often thought that these skills would be an asset in the Machine Gun Corps so it would make sense that he was 'invited' to join the service!

 

The Army Sevice Corps does appear to be a common feature in the service of  the other MGC men  we have mentioned and I think that postwar (so possible wartime) friends of Pte Wilson were also members of the ASC, one being a long serving regular Sgt by the time of WW1.

 

Lincspoacher

[kenf48]

I wonder if these men were employed drivers in the transport section of a Company rather than a 'combat gun team'.  It's looking for a needle in a haystack as far as his Company is concerned but as you have to start somewhere  then the 214th Company is as good as any, but other ranks seldom get a name check in the diaries, some are better than others.

 

This is the ACI I referred to which describes how men were recruited from the Infantry (not sure how it worked for the ASC but guess it was similar.

 

'596. Transfer of Infantry Recruits to the Machine Gun Corps.

 

1. A.C.I. 1545 of 1916 is cancelled, and the returns therein called for will no longer be rendered.

 

2. Two officers of the M.G.C. will be detailed to inspect Reserve Infantry Battalions in Commands with a view to selecting sufficient men of the necessary standard required to complete the establishment of the M.G.C. (Infantry).

 

3. One officer will inspect the men in Reserve Infantry Battalions in the Scottish, Northern and Western Commands, and the other officer will inspect those of the Eastern and Southern Commands and London District.

 

4. The inspecting officers will inform the O.C. the Reserve Infantry Battalion of the number of men selected by him, and the O.C. the unit will then immediately grant the men their 4 days' Expeditionary Force leave.

 

5. The O.C. the Reserve Infantry Battalion will inform the G.O.C.-in-C. in whose Command the battalion is stationed by telegram of the number of men selected by the inspecting officer.

 

6. The G.O.C.-in-C. the Command will inform "Forcedly (A.G. 9) London" by telegram at 5 p.m. every Saturday night of the number of men selected by the inspecting officer during the previous week when further instructions will be issued regarding the number of men to be sent to the M.G.C.

 

7. The men ordered to be sent to Grantham will be dealt with under the conditions laid down in A.C.I. 2098 of 1916, except that para. 1 will not apply, as the men will have already received their 4 days' leave.'

 

Ken

[ph0ebus]

Have you tried reaching out to these folks to see if they have anything above and beyond what you already have?

 

http://www.machine-gun-corps-database.co.uk/intro_page.html

 

As an aside, where was he from?  My maternal grandmother's family were all Wilsons.

 

-Daniel

[Lincspoacher]

Thank you again Kenf48 for your details for the MGC selection process from the home units, must now try to find some more information! I did check the war diary for the 214th MGC company but was a very dry read but did give great technical detail of the daily logistics! Thank you ph0ebus for your idea I have been trying myself over the years to solve the mysteries of the MGC but soon I may have to seek further help! In answer to your interest my Wilsons were from Lincolnshire though one did emigrate to Canada? Lincspoacher

[Lincspoacher]

Well have just had a few hours looking through the local newspapers for new details about Pte Wilson to find the following casualty report dated 29.9.17. ' Mrs T Wilson has just received official word that her husband is currently laying in a hospital in France seriously ill with a wound to his left shoulder, he left the UK last June' 

 

Based on this new detail it seem that Pte Wilson may have been wounded in mid September 1917 having left for France in June so he could have joined one of the newly formed MGC companies that were established in the July or that he was a replacement to an existing unit?

 

I made a search for the 'rural tribunals' that may have shown him making an appeal against conscription but couldn't find anything. I guess this means that he voluntered to be attested or joined up before his time as family stories have indicated?

 

So new questions from this:

 

1. I think that during 1916 from his enlisment Pte Wilson was in the training reserve so as the Lincolns were the local unit he would have been in the 3rd reserve brigade?

2. Where would this brigade be based in the UK?

3. What would these 'home service' units be used for after they had done their basic training and before the men were selected for front line service?

 

Lincpoacher

[kenf48]

In the absence of a service record or other corroborative evidence we cannot possibly know when Pte Wilson was mobilised, however we do have a good idea when he transferred to the MGC.  It is reasonable to assume he, like Pte Bower, was transferred into the MGC from the Training Reserve.  We know Pte Bower joined the TR on the 18th April, having previously been mobilized to the ASC (MT) at Grove Park on the 17th February 1917. Pte Hewes, on the other hand was mobilised on the 14th February and reported to the Depot of the Leicestershire Regiment on the 15th and on to the 12th Training Reserve (sic) on the 17th February from where he was posted directly to the MGC on the 5th May.

 

The Long Long Trail has a section on the Training Reserve http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/training-reserve/

which from your referencing of the 3rd Brigade I guess you've seen. 

 

You will also see the 12th (Reserve) Leicester Bn  became the 83rd TR Bn and the 11th (Reserve) Lincolnshire became the 82nd TR Bn both were part of the 19th Reserve Brigade based in Newcastle,  So it's possible men from this Brigade were 'selected' and posted to the MGC around the same time.

It does not seem likely he would have been in a Reserve Bn in 1916 if he came from the TR in May 1917.  There is no evidence he was serving in the Army, other than the "B" Reserve in 1916.

 

However to answer the specific questions

 

1.He would in all probability been mobilised to the nearest local Depot (always assuming he did not join the ASC).  From there he could have been posted to a Reserve Bn of the Lincolnshire Regiment or more correctly a TR unit associated with that Regiment, i.e. the 3rd or the 19th. However as noted in the article 'Regimental distinctions disappeared' with the formation of the TR.

 

2. As referenced on the LLT 3rd Reserve Brigade was based at Brocton (nr Stafford)

 

3. Home Service units typically were employed on coastal defence, garrison and guarding duties and also Ireland.  The LLT lists where these units were posted.

 

 

Ken

Edited 24 August , 2016 by kenf48

[Lincspoacher]

Hello thank you Kenf48 for another great response to my search for Pte Wilson's war service! I have just got a reply from the MGC database that supports much of what we have been thinking here and that the service of Pte Bower who at 1st was with the ASC then to the training reserve and finally to the MGC could be very similar to that of Pte Wilson as were many men in the same service number range. This would help explain what he was doing in 1916 but I have also noted after reading the local tribunals in the local press that some men chose to join the' Volunteer Training Corps' rather than enlist if they had valued professions or home restraints. Could this be possible for Pte Wilson instead of the ASC he was in the VTC but then go on to the training reserve and MGC later? Lincspoacher

[kenf48]

Aged 28 and married, if he attested under the Derby Scheme, and we're only guessing he did, he would have been in Group 33, the call up date for this group was 29 May 1916. Many men were not mobilised on the 'due date' for many reasons.  

 

As previously stated we only have two, or now 3, definite dates, plus his discharge to the Class Z Reserve, which implies he had fully recovered from his wound.

 

Did he join the ASC (MT)?

We don't know.  

Was he in the TR?

Probably, the TR was formed in September 1916 so he had to learn soldiering there if called up after that date.

Did he appear before the local/County Tribunal?

Probably, but again no evidence found, any suggestion he joined the VTC is just speculation.

 

Ken

[Lincspoacher]

Thank you again Kenf48 for your making sense of my muddle! I have just been able to check some details from the ASC enlistment list and have found a few named Thomas Wilson with the following service numbers:1806, 16774, 19385, 21081, 34392, 41450, 42017 and 43784. I have tried to check against MIC's but not found anything that indicates that these numbers had any overseas service and I don't know when they may have been issued to see if any could fit the date in 1916? Lincspoacher

[Lincspoacher]

I have just been working through the RASC archives as held by the Royal logistics Corps but without success even for men I know that served with them! Anyone else found this problem with this archive?

 

I have had some more possible results on the family lore front that indicates that he may have joined the ASC with his brothers and other local men though it seems he was happy to join the MGC when given the chance as he 'didn't think much to' the ASC life as it was similar to his civilian job as a horseman. His brothers had been charged with poaching early in 1916 so when their conscription time was up it was likely that he joined up too to keep an eye on them! I have guessed the ASC was their unit as the youngest of them was earlier refused overseas service due to his poor eyesight though later on marriage he was listed as a soldier though there's no evidence of overseas service so was he with one of the home service companies that covered for farmers in the army?

[Lincspoacher]

Been along time coming but now can update the search for my ancestor!  Still cannot with certainty say that he was in the ASC but the attached image I think shows him in the training reserve pressed into service as a guard whilst at Brocton camp where there was an epidemic during the winter of 1916 -17.

 

[Lincspoacher]

I think it was from there he may have been with the ASC and then to the MGC as was suggested earlier in this topic via the 3rd machine gun training reserve at Clipstone camp going finally to France in the may of 1917. 

[Lincspoacher]

I  have recently been given some more history from a family member that I have used documentary sources to trace the rest of his MGC service. There were 2 suspected thieves in the company that the CO wanted caught in the act so a sting operation was planed with a fake rumour of an inspection. The one who stole valuables was wise to the rouse so he disposed of his loot on the march, my G Grandfather needed a watch (in the attached photo) so grabbed it from the mud and by chance it saved his life by deflecting a bayonet during an incident with a berserk solider back at camp a week later. The other thief in the unit was obsessed with German loot but wouldn't be parted from his haul so he was caught red handed and was soon after executed. My ancestor supposedly acquired some of the items from this event that he kept like the watch and gave it to a grandson.  If these stories match the documents I have studied then I can finally place Pte T Wilson with the 117th company MGC!

Edited 12 May , 2022 by Lincspoacher
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[Lincspoacher]

The final part of the trail came on the casual question to my distant relation as to if there were any other postcards of our shared family member and he said yes, he was in some propaganda photos made to reply to German claims! I found details in unit war diaries of the 39th battalion MGC that photographers and cinematographers came to take images of the unit, this seemed to connect to my earlier evidence as the 117th coy was amalgamated in to this particular battalion in the March of 1918.  A chance study of the Imperial War Museum archive lead me to the final discovery of the photos and film 'The men that Ludendorf fears!' made in the summer of 1918 but as ever there was no eureka moment of matching Pte Wilson definitely to one of these images but I think I matched the officer from the attached photo?

Edited 12 May , 2022 by Lincspoacher
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