Ewing75 Posted 22 July , 2016 Share Posted 22 July , 2016 Hi all, A rejuvenated passion to find out what happened to my Great Grandfather leads me back to the forum. He enlisted voluntarily in November 1914 at Deal and in Feb 1915 was transferred to Signal Co Divisional Engineers. On 31st Jan 1917 he transferred from the Signal Co RND to what is simply stated in his service record as Royal Engineers. He was killed in action on 23rd March 1918, apparently whilst serving with 63rd Divisional Signal Company, Royal Engineers. His name, Frederick Thomas Chapman 207449, who was never found and is remembered at Arras Memorial. I've personal read the war diary of 63rd (RN) Division and find absolutely no mention of Fred. I've also read both 249 & 248 Field Company Royal Engineers dairies, however am yet to read 247's. In both 249/248 there are almost daily mentions of Sapper's, going on or returning from leave however can find no mention of Sapper F T Chapman during his leave period 21st Nov 1916 to 10th Jan 1917, nor any mention of his joining the Companies, which again is noted frequently in both diaries. I have done some research into the non-battalion casualties of the RND support units to try and find some evidence of him. One possible clue does lie in the dairy of 249 Field Company RE of RND, which states om 22nd March 1918 'Heavy shelling all day and also on the rear HW and transport lines at Neuville during the afternoon and evening, the camp Neuville was evacuated and horses removed to a brickyard nearby'. Now the Divisional Train war diary also records on 22nd March 'One driver attached to Divisional HQ with baggage wagon was killed by shell fire' It's taken me many years to get to the above conclusion, and I wondered if you guys may be able to offer your opinion on where else I could look for evidence of Fred, would he have even been in any of the companies mentioned above 247,8 or 9? Its just a educated guess on my part that he would have gone to one of them, but I may be well off the mark. Any help offered would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 22 July , 2016 Share Posted 22 July , 2016 Hi, Presuming it's on Ancestry/FMP, would it be possible to post a link to his service record? Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewing75 Posted 22 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2016 Hi Chris, the image is too large to upload and his record isn't actually listed on Ancestry. However, I'll type it up as per his card; F. T. Chapman, Depot/S/703, Branch of Service: Divisional Engineers, R.M. RND 7595: Detached from Signal Co. to Stavros for duty while serving with MEF. Feb. 1915. Embarked Signal Coy. Divisional Engrs, for M.E.F. 30.11.16 BEF. SIG.CO.DO47 Leave to UK. 21.11.16. 10.1.17 Ref. 4657/16, Depot, Deal: Transfd. to Royal Engrs. from Signal Coy, R.N.D., commencing in R.E. on 1st Jan 1817, under authority of R.M.O. Circ. 25530/16 of 2.12.16 16.12.16. SIG.DO.50. Rejoined Co. fm. leave 7.12.16 20.6.16 DO.22/Signal Coy, Embarked on HMT. Minnewoska, Murdros, 15.5.16 disembarked Marseilles 19.5.16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 23 July , 2016 Share Posted 23 July , 2016 This is the Div.'s file for the period and it may be the one which you have already examined Reference: ADM 137/3933 Description: 63rd (Royal Naval) Division: report on operations Date: 1918 Mar 21 - Mar 29 Regarding the 247/8/9 Field Companies RE: I notice that in his articles for his 'RND' magazine, when he is describing the actions later in 1918, Len Sellers provides a unit breakdown of casualties which differentiates between the three Field Companies RE and the Signal Company. This suggest to me that the Signal Company kept its own separate set of records or diary, however, I have no idea where that may be filed or if it still exists Have you tried an inquiry at the successor's museum? See http://www.royalsignalsmuseum.co.uk/ Good luck Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 23 July , 2016 Share Posted 23 July , 2016 The war diary for the Divisional Signal Company is at Kew under reference WO 95/3104/1 to /4 and can be downloaded. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4556255 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 23 July , 2016 Share Posted 23 July , 2016 Both Soldiers Died and Register of Soldiers Effects show his Unit as 63 Div Signals Co. The Unit WD is also available on Ancestry but there is no mention of casualties on 23/03/1918. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 23 July , 2016 Share Posted 23 July , 2016 Hi Ewing75, Unfortunately, I didn't find a 'Soldier's Will' for him which might have had some clue. As another long shot his death certificate might show a specific RE unit. The GRO death indices show his reference as (Year, Volume, Page) as below, so if you were minded to, you should be able to get a copy certificate. I know that it will probably only be a general authority to transfer men, but I did wonder what "R.M.O. Circ. 25530/16 of 2.12.16" actually said. I looked at a few of the CWGC/Soldier's Effects records for men that the CWGC records has as 63rd Division Signals Company, and in the majority of cases (including yours) the unit is replicated in their Soldier's Effects records. However, for Sidney Pordage who died on 30th March 1918 the CWGC has him as 63rd Division Signals Company, but his Soldier's Effects record has his death as a 249 Field Coy. RE man. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 24 July , 2016 Share Posted 24 July , 2016 11 hours ago, clk said: I know that it will probably only be a general authority to transfer men, but I did wonder what "R.M.O. Circ. 25530/16 of 2.12.16" actually said. Chris, I must also confess to my own ignorance as to the above RMO Circ. However, if allowed to speculate, then taking a lead from your own guess re a technical transfer of men; this could well be correct. Just three weeks previous, C D Shute the Major General Commanding the division, had sent up to 5th Corps HQ some recommendations for the reorganisation/restructuring of his division (probably summed up as it being too Navy and too little Army) Item 3 of Shute's 7th November 1916 recommendations was* “Divisional Signal Coy.:- It would in my opinion be more satisfactory if arrangements were made to transfer the personnel of the whole of the Divisional Signals Company to the Army Signal Service. If this suggestion is approved, it is thought that Officers and Other Ranks should retain their present ranks on transfer. All ranks in the 63rd Divisional Signal Company are now debarred from any promotion except within the Company” Above is just a guess though regards Michael *as quoted by Len Sellers in his magazine 'RND' issue No.10, September 1999, page 920 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewing75 Posted 25 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2016 I managed to examine the 247th Field Company Royal Engineers WD today and again can find no mention of Fred. Maybe I'm clutching at straws expecting to find him mentioned in these WD's however it seems a fairly common thing for Sapper's to be mentioned as already stated, when leaving for or returning from leave etc. I spoke with my 90 year old Uncle who recollects his mother (Fred's daughter) telling him that Fred was killed by shell fire when a colleague joked with him that his commanding officer had instructed horses to be moved, and when Fred went to move them he was hit by a shell. How true this is, I cannot say but the moving of horses story does echo storys I recall growing up from other members of family. This would lead me to believe maybe Fred was the driver attached to divisional HQ killed bu shellfire on the 22nd.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 25 July , 2016 Share Posted 25 July , 2016 I haven't looked at them for a couple of days, but doesn't one of the diaries record something like 2 (unnamed men) were injured by the transport which bolted when a shell exploded nearby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 On 7/22/2016 at 23:39, Ewing75 said: I've personal read the war diary of 63rd (RN) Division and find absolutely no mention of Fred. On 7/23/2016 at 19:39, horatio2 said: The war diary for the Divisional Signal Company is at Kew under reference WO 95/3104/1 to /4 and can be downloaded. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4556255 When your op mentioned reading the WD, was it the Div Signal Company one as recommended by H2? If not, then that is surely the place to look, rather than in the WDs of the Field Companies [As I understand it your Great Grand Father was in the Signal Company when he died, not one of the Field Companies] Good Luck Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewing75 Posted 27 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 27 July , 2016 19 hours ago, michaeldr said: When your op mentioned reading the WD, was it the Div Signal Company one as recommended by H2? If not, then that is surely the place to look, rather than in the WDs of the Field Companies [As I understand it your Great Grand Father was in the Signal Company when he died, not one of the Field Companies] Good Luck Michael Hi Michael, Yes, I've read the Divisional Signal Company diary also, but to no avail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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