2nd bat. South Lancashire regiment

[wjb2]

I joined this forum after reading some of the posts and help provided by members unfortunately I originally opened this topic in the wrong section. I recently started to research my grandfather who fought as part of the BEF in WW1, his name was William Butler, he was part of the 2nd Battalion, South Lancashire Regiment and his reg. number was 7491, and not that it particularly matters but he was an Irish man from Tipperary, and it would appear from the reg. number that he joined in 1904?

unfortunatly when these men returned home they tended not to talk about what happened, together with the changing political climate in Ireland at that time ment that people simply chose to forget, which in hindsight was a terrible mistake.

we do know his general movements bu it is difficult to piece together exactly what happened to him but what we do know is that he was  seriously wounded sometime before the 16th September that year (we found the notice in newspaper clippings). anecdotally we know he spent about 6 months in hospital and was discharged in March 1915.

like many others he was awarded the 14 Mons star, and the British War and Victory Medals. 

we have his medal award and medical index card / discharge notices but it would be great to find out what actually happened to him how he was injured and where, I've run into a dead end as his medical records / service records seem to have den destroyed, it would be nice to get some photos of this regiment around that time.

any help would be hugely appreciated.

as a footnote thanks to Grahame who sent me the extracts of the regiments war diaries for this time these are invaluable.

[charlie962]

Would he have been discharged as 'time expired' if he enlisted c 1904? He doesn't seem to be on the Silver War Badge Roll so I'm presuming he wasn't discharged because of injuries.

[wjb2]

Charlie

 

i don't know, what is certain is he was wounded as he was listed as such in two separate newspapers on the 17th October 1914. It might be possible that his enlistment date was not 1904 even though I was led to believe that it was based on his service number?

 

 

regards

[Langdon]

 

It was 1904 - and you can narrow it down to a month or two by checking close numbers in the Silver War Badge records which show enlistment dates:

 

7360  11.01.04

7460  05.04.04

7555  04.07.04

7586  18.08.04

 

Mike

[wjb2]

Thanks Mike,

 

good to confirm 1904,

 

another question is it possible to have been discharged as 'time expired' in 1915? At a time when the demand for men was increasing?

[ss002d6252]

33 minutes ago, wjb2 said:

Thanks Mike,

 

good to confirm 1904,

 

another question is it possible to have been discharged as 'time expired' in 1915? At a time when the demand for men was increasing?

It is - between Aug 15 and the MSA being introduced in 1916 men could be discharged if they'd reached the end of the term of service (including the 1 yr war time extension).

He wouldn't appear to have been discharged as time-expired - for a 1904 enlistment he wouldn't have come up to end of his term of service until 1917.

It's more likely he was discharged medically. Men not appearing on the SWB rolls isn't unusual.

 

Craig

[wjb2]

Ok thanks for that, any idea if any photos exist of the regiment or elsewhere around that time?

 

William 

[wjb2]

small update, little bit off topic but anyway as a little feedback for those who kindly provided help,

currently a process is well underway to erect a memorial to the men of the small locality in south Tipperary (where this man was from), who served, were wounded or in many cases were killed during the first world war. it should be complete during this summer I will upload a photo on the forum after it has been completed. 

[Langdon]

Thanks wjb2, look forward to seeing it. My great uncle (see below & avatar) was born in Kilmallock Co. Limerick not far away...

Mike

[charlie962]

wjb2, it is good to see that those who served are getting recognition now after a long period of not knowing how to handle this subject. Charlie

[wjb2]

latest info on this is that the memorial will be finally unveiled on the 27th of August, there are a number of names who should be listed on this but unfortunately we have no details on their regiment etc. so again I am asking for some help if at all possible,

 

what we do know is that the following information was published in the Tipperary Star (the local newspaper for south Tipperary) on the 10th of April 1915;

 

Tipperary Soldiers – Prisoners of War in Germany – An appeal to the County.   

The Rev. T. Dunne sends for publication, with a view to an appeal to their fellow countrymen and women for comforts for them, the undermentioned list of names of Tipperarymen who are now prisoners of war in Kriegsgefangenenlager, Limburg, Lahn, Germany, where the Rev. J.T. Crotty, O.P., a close personal friend of Fr. Dunne is acting as chaplain. Fr. Crotty wrote: “The hospitals and prisons tell a tale of woe and misery, which shocks me”.

We shall have pleasure in acknowledging and forwarding to Fr. Dunne any subscriptions received at this office.

Privates M. Lyons, Connaught’s, Commons, D. Butler, Boulea, J. Butler, Boulea, J. Connolly, South Lans, Boulea were named on Fr. Crotty’s list.

 

all of these men were from this locality (the commons, Boulea) and it would be good to include their regiment, date of death etc. if at all possible,

 

so any help much appreciated,

[charlie962]

Are you saying all these men died as PoWs?

Charlie

[charlie962]

Here is an ICRC entry  for a Michael Lyons at Gessen 1917, captured Caudry (near Cambrai) 27/8/14 and interned first at Limburg I believe. Does the address of NOK  Killenaule ,Thurles fit? The unit is not clear- 18th RI  perhaps 18th Bn Royal Irish or even 18th Regiment d'infanterie. D Company. But then Connaughts were 88th Foot. Anyway a starter?

edit  of course 18th Foot is Royal Irish regt!

edit his MIC and SWB both show him as Royal Irish Regt, so perhaps not your man?

 

 

Charlie

Edited 29 June , 2017 by charlie962

[charlie962]

This is probably your Connolly J, SthLancs.   Ballingary is pretty close. There's lots more on ICRC which I will extract

 

MIC details

First name(s)	James
Last name	Connolly
Year	1914-20
Service number	7612
Rank	Private
Regiment	2nd South Lancashire Regiment
Service record	Soldier Number: 7612, Rank: Private, Corps: 2nd South Lancashire Regiment

 

ICRC typical entries, all the same man. I see one entry says Commons

 

 

 

There is a 1902 Militia attestation for him on FMP into the 4th Royal Irish Regt which shows him transferring to Regular Army 1904, South Lancashire Regt. I think he may have added 6 mths to his age then. His family are shown as

 

 

 

WJB2-  does every little village have its 'commons' ?

[wjb2]

@ Charlie962

 

I don't know where to start to thank you for the info, in answer to the questions raised,

 

1 we have no idea if they died or not,

2 address of Killenaule definitely fits (its no more than a few miles from Ballingarry) 

3 I think that James Connolly is probably the man we speak about,  I think that the D and J Butler could also have numbers in the south Lanc's close to his? 

4 the 'Commons' is a townsland  / small area in the parish of Ballingarry so its a very specific address,

 

I will upload the list of names later on and you can see the missing parts' that we hope to complete

 

 

[wjb2]

list of names hopefully in attachment

5955263e2912b_listofnamesforww1plaque.pdf

 

[charlie962]

For the 2 Butlers, the nearest fit I can get are as follows. I couldn't see any South Lancs Candidates, Just Royal Irish regt.  Note that transcription on ICRC PoW records is very erratic!! Think of handwriting, phoenetics and different languages and you get all combinations.

 

there is Daniel Butler, 4027, Pte Royal Irish Regiment. Captured 20/10/1914 La Bassee. ICRC have 3 records (PA1627,10769,40132), 2 of which say born 17/3/1893. One says born Thurles, the other says Boston USA but then below says NoK address Commons Thurles. I am guessing the Boston USA is a misread of Barton-on-Sea, a contact address that appears on his MIC!

Entitled 14Star (to France 7/10/14), BWM,VM, Transferred to ClassZ reserve 17/3/19

 

 

there is a James Butler, 4318, Pte Royal Irish Regiment. Captured 20/10/1914 (it says 2/10 on the ICRC record (PA7655) but he hadn't landed yet). ICRC notes him born 10/8/1893, Count Ippeon then below that for NoK address has Bouter.

It is probable that Count Ippeon is meant to be County Tipperary. and possible that Bouter is Boulea ??

Entitled 14Star (to France 7/10/14 ), BWM, VM, Transferred to ClassZ reserve 3/4/19

 

 

Anyway with these 2 birth dates do you have any access to local birth register that might give further proof or not?

 

What do you think?

 

Charlie

 

 

 

[charlie962]

WJB2, I have looked at your list and in my searching for the above I came across the following who aren't on your list? They have connection with Commons, Ballingarry.

  James Fitzpatrick 11418

  James Lyons, 31939 and 32504

  Michael Power 5696 then poss 6205 (FMP have a Service Record but system went down)

They came up on the Irish attestations Registers held by the National Army Museum . You have picked up William Cleere. My search was filtered 'Commons' but there were some irelevant records. All these men will have reenlisted postwar.

 

If you need more detail let me know

Charlie

[wjb2]

Charlie, I think the D & J Butler are probably the men on the list, I will check birth records to try verify and let you know if they match, if you have any further details on the other 3 names you found you might let me know,

 

thanks a lot,

[charlie962]

WJB2, I hope you can follow this. Michael Power's service 1917-19 needs verifying. Are  these of interest?

 

Michael POWER 4696,6205?, 7075781

Enlisted Clonmel 16/8/1916, Short Service (duration of war)  4th Royal Irish Regt, 4/5696. Age claimed 19years

2days. A labourer. Son of James & Mary Power, Crowhill, Commons, Co.Tipperary.

Discharged Queenstown 15/9/1916 'having made a misstatement as to age on enlistment'; Actual birth 5/9/1900 so not

even 16 when he enlisted!

There is mention in Attestations of service RIrRegt 21/6/17-18/2/19 no 6205 but I find no other trace. ???

Attested Durrington 19/2/1919, Regular, Royal Dublin Fus.,no 7075781. NoK shows mother, Mary Power, Commons,

Thurles.
Discharged Dublin, 31/3/1921. Fusilier, Character V.Good

No trace of a medal index card?

Sources: FindmyPast/Ancestry Service Records, National Army Museum Irish Attestations 1920-22

James FITZPATRICK 11418, 7109549

Attested Killenaule 8/11/1915, Regular 7+5, R Ir Regt, aged 19 53/365, born Ballingarry, Labourer, NoK mother

Ellen, The Commons, Ballingarry.
served MEF 1916/17, EEF 1917/18, BEF 1918. Entitled BWM,VM. Roll says 5th R.Ir.
Discharged 8/7/1921 No longer fit, address Kyle,Commons,Thurles

Sources: MIC, NAM Irish attestations 1920-22.

James LYONS, 31939, 32504, 7076063

Served 2RDF 31939 24/6/1918-5/2/19 entitled BWM,VM

Attested Killkenny 16/6/1919, Regular, RDFus, 7076063, aged 21 74/365 (thus born 1898), Coal Miner, born

Ballingarry Callan, NoK mother Elizabeth, The Commons, Thurles.

Transferred to Manchester Regiment 15/3/1922 (subsequent service ??)

Sources: MIC, NAM Irish attestations 1920-22.

 

William CLEERE, who you have on your list, had plenty of overseas service. This extract from NAM Irish Attestations link as post18

He served with Northumberland Fusiliers 23Bn (Tyneside Scottish) no 48019. There are Hospital admission records for his 1918 wounding on ForcesWarRecords.

 

Charlie

[wjb2]

Charlie,

perfect, again all addresses do tie up so as you thought these three men are all from the area of Ballingarry, I will have birth records on Monday (if they are available) for D & J Butler so I will let you know,

 

its unbelievable such a number of men from so small an area and population, - probably replicated over many parts of Ireland.

 

thanks

 

W

[wjb2]

all,

 

the WW1 memorial was unveiled last Sunday and as promised previously I have attached (1) some photographs and (2) a link to a newspaper article of what was a very successful event, attended by a huge crowd including representatives from the Irish army.

 

so thanks to all for the help provided, in particular Charlie as there are names on this memorial that simply would not be there without his help.

 

http://www.nationalist.ie/news/home/267596/ballingarry-honours-its-eighty-heroes-who-served-in-world-war-1.html

 

 

 

 

 

[charlie962]

What a great result ! Real progress that this sort of event can now happen.

 

I'm glad they've included service numbers so that identification in 100 years time is much easier.

 

Charlie