London Regiment cloth shoulder titles and patches

[Drew-1918]

I would like to confirm whether the following titles are Great War period or not.

 

I believe this red on grey 13th London one to be interwar. It would be good to get some evidence to confirm the fact one way or the other. 

 

I am not sure about this '3 C.L.R.B.' title. It was for sale on an auction site recently. Does it stand for '3rd City of London Rifle Brigade' or for the Cadets? 

 

 

I am also not sure about this London Irish slip-on. There are similar ones at the IWM for the QWKRR, QVR. THR, LRB and Artists that are clearly interwar, so I suspect this one is too. However, I have seen it described as WW1. It would also be good to get evidence on the other London Irish titles below.

 

 

From my own collection

From my own collection

 

From an auction site

This title seems to be for the regular Queen's Royal West Surrey Regiment. However, I have seen it described as both WW1 & WWII and also as a 'Londons' title. The similar red on khaki title included in my London cloth titles illustrations previously, is described by the IWM as 24th Battalion, London Regiment. I have also seen a square, slip-on style 'Queen's' title, in white on khaki, in a photograph of a Great War period soldier of the Queen's (not Londons'). 

 

I would be very grateful if anyone has information on any of the above.

 

Regards,

 

Chris

Edited 25 November , 2018 by Drew-1918

[Drew-1918]

On 24/11/2018 at 10:24, Drew-1918 said:

A couple more illustrations based on the collection of Grey Brigade. The first is a slip-on shoulder title of a type I have not really seen before:

 

21/9/16 - 7/10/19, IWM Standard Pattern

Edited 10 February , 2019 by Drew-1918
Typo

[Grovetown]

13 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

 

21/9/16 - 7/10/19, IWM Standard Pattern

 

And you could buy one here next week:

 

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/candt-auctioneers/catalogue-id-srct10092/lot-25963532-33b5-49f8-98aa-a9de017b509b

 

Cheers,

 

GT. 

[Drew-1918]

Hello GT,

 

Very good of you to point this one out- thanks very much. I have not used that site before, but will definitely be looking into this one. 

 

Thanks again,

 

Chris

[Dragoon]

13 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

 

21/9/16 - 7/10/19, IWM Standard Pattern

Good to see this thread back on top again, very often look back on for reference etc.

I know it's probably a big ask, but would it be possible to consolidate it again with all the pictures and titles again please, makes it easy to look back on.

Many thanks

 

Chris

[Drew-1918]

Hello Chris,

 

Your interest is much appreciated so it is not a big ask at all. 

 

I was slowly in the process of consolidating, the only problem being that since I have switched from using Power Point to Adobe Illustrator, it takes quite a lot of time to produce all the images. I will certainly try and do as you request though. 

 

Can I just clarify what you mean? I thought the embroidered titles were pretty much consolidated a few posts back. Any ‘extra’ ones I left out as I wasn’t sure of their date. I could try to pull together all the ones I am unsure about in a different post, if that’s what you mean.

The patches are a bit spread out and I could certainly put them together with the latest work on the titles. Does the above sound like what you meant?

[Grovetown]

19 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

Hello GT,

 

Very good of you to point this one out- thanks very much. I have not used that site before, but will definitely be looking into this one. 

 

Thanks again,

 

Chris

 

It's run by the Antiques Trades Gazette and provides 'traditional' auction houses with an online dimension.

 

Among other things, there's quite a bit of rare 'cloth' in that sale including, in this context, a pair of QVR shoulder titles.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

[Dragoon]

13 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

Hello Chris,

 

Your interest is much appreciated so it is not a big ask at all. 

 

 

 

Can I just clarify what you mean? I thought the embroidered titles were pretty much consolidated a few posts back. Any ‘extra’ ones I left out as I wasn’t sure of their date. I could try to pull together all the ones I am unsure about in a different post, if that’s what you mean.

The patches are a bit spread out and I could certainly put them together with the latest work on the titles. Does the above sound like what you meant?

Thank you for your response, appreciated.

Ah, I wasn't sure if the shoulder title one was complete, if it is then that's great, I've screen shot that.

I'd love to see all the slip on titles you know about on a similar basis to the shoulder titles, and any other unsure of items.

The work and effort you're putting into this thread is greatly appreciated, thank you

 

Chris

Ps, I'd keep it altogether on this thread, it's all relavent,up to you though, cheers

Edited 11 February , 2019 by Dragoon

[Drew-1918]

5 hours ago, Grovetown said:

 

It's run by the Antiques Trades Gazette and provides 'traditional' auction houses with an online dimension.

 

Among other things, there's quite a bit of rare 'cloth' in that sale including, in this context, a pair of QVR shoulder titles.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

 

Brilliant. Many thanks again. I have just looked up the QVR ones up too. As I think you probably know, the IWM describes the rectangular ones as 2/9th Bn. 

[Drew-1918]

2 hours ago, Dragoon said:

Thank you for your response, appreciated.

Ah, I wasn't sure if the shoulder title one was complete, if it is then that's great, I've screen shot that.

I'd love to see all the slip on titles you know about on a similar basis to the shoulder titles, and any other unsure of items.

The work and effort you're putting into this thread is greatly appreciated, thank you

 

Chris

Ps, I'd keep it altogether on this thread, it's all relavent,up to you though, cheers

Many thanks indeed. I will get on to this directly. Thanks for the feedback and advice, it is very helpful.

[Dragoon]

2 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

Many thanks indeed. I will get on to this directly. Thanks for the feedback and advice, it is very helpful.

Cheers

[Toby Brayley]

Among a group shot of the Military Police Pay Office, 1919 were these two chaps of the London Rifle Brigade. 

 

Nothing to special but hopefully of interest. 

[Drew-1918]

That’s fantastic. Thanks so much. I’m always grateful for anything like this. I wonder what they were doing there! 

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

[mark holden]

Badges attributed to RQMS SR Summerford of 1/13th Londons and 2/16th Londons. The red square patches don't match with either battalion but came in his effects.

 

Regards

 

Mark

[Dragoon]

Fantastic Mark,

Thank you for sharing.

Chris 

[Drew-1918]

Wow, fantastic stuff. Thank you so much, Mark. 

 

With regard to the Kensingtons, if you turn the red squares through 90° to make a 'diamond', I think you will find that they are in fact the correct patch. Other London battalions at the IWM have included these square shapes but described them as diamonds. It confused me a bit when I first saw them. It took a while before it dawned on  me that they may have had more important things to worry about at the time than mathematical accuracy. 

 

I have been a bit under the cosh at work and have had to neglect my Great War research, I am starting to forget things a bit, but I think the 2/16th would have used the red circle as a pagri patch, rather than on the sleeves. I will have to double-check this though. I wonder why a quarter of it is cut out. 

 

Thanks again Mark, they are great finds and wonderful to see here. 

 

Much appreciated,

 

Chris

[Andrew Upton]

1 hour ago, Drew-1918 said:

...if you turn the red squares through 90° to make a 'diamond', I think you will find that they are in fact the correct patch....

 

45° I believe - if you turn a square through 90° it is still a square...

[Drew-1918]

Whoops! You're absolutely right, of course. I don't know what I was thinking. 

 

Many thanks,

 

Chris

[elliot#1]

11 hours ago, mark holden said:

Badges attributed to RQMS SR Summerford of 1/13th Londons and 2/16th Londons. The red square patches don't match with either battalion but came in his effects.

 

Regards

 

Mark

 

 

 

Mark,

 

These are fantastic, thanks for sharing with us!

 

Elliot

[MBrockway]

I echo these posts - great addition to the thread.

Mark

[Drew-1918]

Mark’s excellent contribution has spurred me on to add one or two things I had been meaning too post. 

 

Here is a recent purchase I made. ‘The Kensington, Official Journal of the 13th London Rgt.’

 

 

I have long wondered what colour patch the 2/13th Bn. London Rgt. wore on the pagri of the sun helmet. This journal is from December, 1945 and is for the Old Comrades Association. The soldier on the right appears to be wearing a circular patch. I believe he is supposed to be of the Great War period.

 

 

It may not seem like much, but I did start to wonder if they had worn any path at all. There is no record for this battalion. This appears to at least depict something. Beyond this, I have no more ideas. I can only speculate that it was grey.

 

Reasons why I believe the patch may have been grey:

1) The 13th Bn. later wore a red/grey rectangular patch.

2) They were the senior battalion of the grey brigade.

3) They didn’t choose the colour red which went to the QWR.

4) The rose worn on the back of the tunic upon first leaving the UK for France was grey. That in itself is a slightly strange colour for a flower. In addition, the QWR wore a red rose and later a red patch. Similarly, the 2/15th Bn. wore a blue rose but later changed to a blue patch. There might be a pattern there.

 

It is not solid evidence at all, but in the absence of further information, it is somehow a bit closer for me, albeit infinitesimally so. 

 

Chris

Edited 7 December , 2019 by Drew-1918
Because autocorrect had the cheek to change one of my words to American English🧐

[Drew-1918]

 

Another recent purchase. It is not in great condition, but I have not seen it before anywhere. For me, at least, it is a new one. "3rd (RES) London Rgt." Illustration added to post No. 168. 

 

 

 

Thanks also to Grove Town for the heads-up on an auction site where I got hold of this. See previous posts. I nearly got a green/black 17th London one that was for sale at the same time, but it went for a crazy price in the end. My finger momentarily hovered over the bid button but luckily I managed to ignore the rush of blood to the head. 

Edited 7 December , 2019 by Drew-1918
To correct post number

[mark holden]

18 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

Wow, fantastic stuff. Thank you so much, Mark. 

 

With regard to the Kensingtons, if you turn the red squares through 90° to make a 'diamond', I think you will find that they are in fact the correct patch. Other London battalions at the IWM have included these square shapes but described them as diamonds. It confused me a bit when I first saw them. It took a while before it dawned on  me that they may have had more important things to worry about at the time than mathematical accuracy. 

 

I have been a bit under the cosh at work and have had to neglect my Great War research, I am starting to forget things a bit, but I think the 2/16th would have used the red circle as a pagri patch, rather than on the sleeves. I will have to double-check this though. I wonder why a quarter of it is cut out. 

 

Thanks again Mark, they are great finds and wonderful to see here. 

 

Much appreciated,

 

Chris

Thanks Chris, 

 

Now you mention rotating the squares that makes more sense. The 2/16th patch with a quarter removed is illustrated in the book WW1 British Battle Insignia published by Military Mode. The patch was worn on the back just below the collar.

 

Regards

 

Mark

[Drew-1918]

16 hours ago, mark holden said:

Thanks Chris, 

 

Now you mention rotating the squares that makes more sense. The 2/16th patch with a quarter removed is illustrated in the book WW1 British Battle Insignia published by Military Mode. The patch was worn on the back just below the collar.

 

Regards

 

Mark

 

Thanks too, Mark. I did not know about the patch on the back. Very interesting. Have now finally ordered that book! 

 

Cheers again,

 

Chris

[Dragoon]

21 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

 

Another recent purchase. It is not in great condition, but I have not seen it before anywhere. For me, at least, it is a new one. "3rd (RES) London Rgt." Illustration added to post No. 68. 

 

 

 

Thanks also to Grove Town for the heads-up on an auction site where I got hold of this. See previous posts. I nearly got a green/black 17th London one that was for sale at the same time, but it went for a crazy price in the end. My finger momentarily hovered over the bid button but luckily I managed to ignore the rush of blood to the head. 

Great to see this thread back, and a nice title Chris.

Life does get in the way of the things we like to do!

Cheers 

 

Chris